Posts by JonathanH

56

The best tactic Anonymous could use against the Society is to make them look noble and humble

by JonathanH in

i was thinking about what would be the most damaging thing anonymous could do on an organizational level by hacking the society.

one poster suggested that they should send out e-mails to all the elders in their elder database pretending to be the society.

but rather than sending out anything wierd and defaming, they should go the opposite route and do what the society would never do but should.

JonathanH

I was thinking about what would be the most damaging thing anonymous could do on an organizational level by hacking the society. One poster suggested that they should send out e-mails to all the elders in their elder database pretending to be the society. I think that combined with hacking their website would be the best thing they could do. But rather than sending out anything wierd and defaming, they should go the opposite route and do what the society would never do but should. Be humble.

They should send out e-mails and put up a public message on the website pretending to be the society. They should apologize for all the pain and suffering they have caused to abuse victims with their policies that were short sighted and not in the spirit of christian love. Tell everyone that "we had lost our way and acted as pharisees in Jesus day, and can only hope to be forgiven by the members of the congregations and by God." Then institute a new zero tolerance policy. If anyone makes any claim of child abuse do not call the WT legal department, but go straight to the secular authorities as soon as you hear of any wrong doing. Admit that the elder body is not qualified to deal with such matters, nor is the WT headquarters, but trained proffesionals exist that can and will get to the bottom of any claimsand protect the children in question. The health and wellbeing of any child is more important than any possible discomfort the congregation may experience as a result of a police investigation. Make the letter truly humble and noble.

What could the Society possibly do in response? Take it all back? Say "Just kidding, some guys hacked us. For legal reasons we do not apologize to anyone for any percieved wrong doing on the part of the congregations and that has nothing to do with us anyway. Seriously, call legal right away if somebody says something about abuse. Don't talk to the authorities, you have the right of clergy to say nothing." It would look absolutely terrible if they took it all back and told all the elders to disregard the previous e-mail and then re-iterate a very callous policy. The contrast between the two would be obvious and apparent. This is what they could have said, but they didn't. Here is what the society really thinks.

Or, even better, they don't do anything. They just go on pretending that they totally said those things because they realize how damaging it would be to publicly retract that statement. It would permanently change their policy and possibly save countless children from the shame of being further victimized by the organization itself and get them the help they actually need.

If anybody knows how to contact the people at "ananymous" that are engaged in dealing with the JW side of their anti-pedophile campaign, show them this message or just let me know and I will try to contact them. Could you imagine if they got the e-mailing list for elders around the country and actually had thousands of them read a real human message from the society?

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

genetic fallacy has its uses. Namely if he was so egregiously wrong about who to align himself with, how do I know his stats are going to be legit? I could spend hours trying to research his data, where he got it, how it was calculated, ect. Or I could dismiss it and get my information from sources that aren't using words like "presstitute." He may be a very nice guy, he may be very smart, he may make a salient point, but I'm not going to waste time double checking his information because the article is on a website that espouses the view that maybe Bush was a reptile alien. There are other sources out there that have information that isn't tainted by insanity. But that is neither here nor there. That has nothing to do with this topic. If you really feel it important to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me. But I don't want this turning into a topic about NWO or this guy's credentials, or logical fallacies.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

.....holy fuck james woods. Seriously? Have we reached a level of national dialogue that is so simplistically black and white that my discussion on economic theory and cultural ethics has been distilled down to "so....Communism? You are a communist?" I guess there was no talking point on fox news about what to say in a discussion on economic rationality so the gears are grinding trying to figure out what the hell this must be about. I am disapointed in you James Woods, and I am saying that out of a place of respect. I thought you would be able to read that and have some kind of commentary on it beyond the shallowest of political dichotomies. NO I am not saying I want communism in america. Fuck.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

You're a smart enough person to understand my clearly state thesis, James Woods. Which inclines me to believe what you really mean is that you aren't sure of what it is you need to argue with. Perhaps rather than trying to find something to argue with, you could take it into consideration that our current cultural ethic is slanted against the working poor and use that knowledge to inform future opinions. Perhaps the appropriate response in this instance is just a brief "That's interesting."

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

Must everything have an objective? Isn't discussion a healthy and necessary part of being informed citizens? I carry no particular dogma, and I consider myself a-political in that I find our political system to be an odd puzzle to be solved rather than something to actively involve myself in. I would vote and involve myself politically if I found that it could serve a purpose, but I think that both parties are essentially like christianity's ineffeble God, either unwilling or unable to do anything remotely useful for us. Much like theology's involvement in the study of theodicy, there is much debate on exactly why our political system is so ineffectual and who's fault it is. I prefer to take a more holistic approach and look at the over arching picture. Part of that over arching picture is that we have developed a culture that will inevitably lead to the decline of the lower and middle class by giving a free ethical pass to the upper class while scorning the lower class. We have developed a system of cultural ethics that breaks classical economic theory. I don't know what the solution to that is. Just stating that it is a problem.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

Seriously Bobcat? Does anybody vet their sources?

from globalresearch's "about" page

The Global Research website was established on the 9th of September 2001, two days before the tragic events of September 11. Barely a few days later, Global Research had become a major news source on the New World Order and Washington's "war on terrorism".

In an era of media disinformation, our focus has essentially been to center on the "unspoken truth".

From wikipedia

" the term New World Order or NWO refers to the emergence of a totalitarian one-world government The common theme in conspiracy theories about a New World Order is that a secretive power elite with a globalist agenda is conspiring to eventually rule the world through an authoritarian world government"

I don't care about conspiracy theories. That gave no perspective, but I did learn the new conspiracy theory buzzword "presstitute." So at least there is that. Now can we not discuss New World Order and other junk like that in my topic please?

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

Sam whiskey, you make my point for me. My point isn't whether or not the ideology is right or wrong, capitalism doesn't care about ethics. Capitalism is essentially a darwinian system that has no concept of ethics or morals. That isn't a value judgment that is just reality. And just like a darwinian system, the success of the ecosystem is predicated on the idea that every organism does it's damndest to survive. But what we have done is create a culture in which lions are awesome and we tell the antelopes that running is wrong. If you don't want to be eaten, then don't be a damn antelope. But running? Well that is just entitlement. Economic rationality dictates that every agent attempts to get as much as they can. But we have demonized one side of the equation and glorified the other so that economic rationality is only virtuous for a segment of the population. This is bad for the ecosystem.

Furthermore your idea that it's just personal choice only makes sense on an individual scale, but does nothing for the group as a whole. Sure I can go to college and improve my situation, but there will still be millions upon millions who can't or didn't go to college. And you may say "well that was their choice." Ok, well let's assume every single one of them went to college. Logistics for our education system aside, what now? Now you have somebody with a degree in economics and a minor in mathematics appreciating the irony of the fact that they are stocking shelves at wal-mart. The only way our society functions is that there are people on the bottom that can't improve their situation. Which means that the economic lower classes are both a necessity and by product of a darwinian economic system. It is literally impossible for everyone to win. Which means we tell the poor that they are necessary for the rest of us to live in luxury, but that we hold them in contempt and show open disdain for them because of that.

We all have to act with personal responsibility as individuals to try and improve our lot, but as a society we have to recognize that it is impossible for everyone to improve their lot and that we require people to lose and we actually try to make people lose because that's how the rest of us win. The hyper conservative ideology of late is like watching a National Geographic special and complaining that the real problem with the Sahara is all of the damn lazy antelope. It is both inevitable and necessary that the antelope get eaten, so maybe would shouldn't hold them in contempt for it. We certainly aren't blaming the lion. Rational choice theory and economic rationality have to be restored, and that means the people at the bottom have to be able to use every tool at their disposal to improve their lot just like the people at the top are allowed to do anything to improve their lot. The demonization of the lower class will only lead to the destruction of the middle and lower class.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

JonathanH

So I won't name where I work (some may already know) but since I decided to go to college I started working in at a retail chain so I could get flexible hours. The pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while I work towards something better. Anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force. There were some very inspirational videos and our managers were very positive, but what it amounted to was people were being laid off around the country, some supervisor positions were being eliminated and all the rank and file workers were just going to pick up the slack for no extra pay. There will be a new carrot on a stick of bonuses that nobody will realistically ever be able to earn because it isn't based on their own performance but the store's performance as a whole, so "in a way, everybody in the store is getting a raise!"

Later there was much discussion among the employees about how we were getting shafted while the people at the top of the corporate food chain just gave themselves millions in bonuses for these cost cutting measures. Somebody mentioned unionizing (uh oh) but was quickly reemed by another employee that went on a rant about "entitlement", and how everybody here is whining about nothing; The corporation did exactly what it was supposed to, it acted in its own self interest to insure that this years profits would be higher than last years profits. He complained that instead of working harder for a chance at advancement in the store we were just being entitled and whiny and wanting money that we hadn't earned.

Part of what he said is true, the other half is irrational in a common way that is destroying our society. Economic rationality is an important social and economic theory. Namely that each individual agent acts in such a way as to attempt to maximize the amount of wealth that they attain. This creates a system of balances between various economic forces that engage in a constant tug of war.

A company acts in an economically rational way by behaving in a self interested way to improve profits. This means getting as much as they possibly can out of its employees while paying them as little as possible. They will use as many tools at their disposal to accomplish this. They will fire people that attempt to create unions, or they engage in anti union propoganda, they will lobby for laws that are beneficial and to keep the minimum wage low, they will create a corporate culture that insists that the workers are lucky, should be happy to work there, and that it is a great company, they will lay off people who are deemed redundant. These are all economically rational things to do. There is no shortage of those that espouse the ideology that there is nothing wrong with a company doing what is necessary to keep costs down in order to stay competitive, even if the result and methods may harm some individuals that are simply unfortunate collateral damage. A corporation needs to behave in an economically rational way to survive.

This is counter balanced by employees acting in an economically rational way by demanding more money, leaving for better paying jobs, or organizing their labor force to negotiate as a group. This is to insure that those lower on the totem pole can still make a living wage, and leverage their labor to keep a balance and create a economically stable middle class.

These latter actions however have become vile deeds. They are the epitome of greed and even worse "entitlement" (which has become a sort of conservative profanity or epithet, rife with political meaning). Essentially we have created a culture where it is the height of american virtue for a corporation to pursue an economically rational course, but the greatest of american vices for the labor market to act in an economically rational way. The only economic rationallity that is a virtue for the labor market is to take up the mantra of Boxer the horse from George Orwell's Animal Farm; "I will work harder." The only economically rational thing the labor force can do that is still considered virtuous is to work hard and hope somebody rewards them for it. If you leave because you are unsatisfied with working conditions, you are a quitter. If you say your wages are insufficient and should have more you are "entitled." And don't you dare talk about organizing the labor force for group negotiations, lest you align your self with the most sinister of literary figures, Ellsworth Toohey.

We have created a cultural climate in which the lower classes must feel ashamed of pursing economically rational courses while they praise those on the rungs above them for their virtuous actions of upholding the american way. This extends even politically where the lowest classes actually vote against their own economic interests in order to uphold an ideology that explicitly holds them down. It is virtuous to cut taxes for the wealthy while tearing down welfare programs and defunding free clinics and other services for the poor. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with those programs, but it is economically rational for the poor to vote to keep those programs running. And yet they don't. The poorest states in the US are frequently the most conservative states in the US. The middle class will continue to disappear and the lower class will continue to get poorer. Because now, it is the "right" thing for them to do.

21

Here's the thing. Nobody actually cares about sparlock. It's a meme only to us.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

at first the sparlock thing was just a cute little diversion.

the icon of an amusingly out of touch cheaply produced dvd.

somehow it has spiralled into a kind of focal point of society bashing.

JonathanH

lol, I just don't like seeing people having fun.

21

Here's the thing. Nobody actually cares about sparlock. It's a meme only to us.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

at first the sparlock thing was just a cute little diversion.

the icon of an amusingly out of touch cheaply produced dvd.

somehow it has spiralled into a kind of focal point of society bashing.

JonathanH

At first the sparlock thing was just a cute little diversion. The icon of an amusingly out of touch cheaply produced DVD. Somehow it has spiralled into a kind of focal point of Society bashing. There are conspiracy theories, there is outrage over the society taking the videos off of youtube, there is speculation of how this will be a wake up call to parents and kids. It's not.

We point to how insular the society is as being one of the key explanations as to how they could produce something this god awful and nonsensical. We are also very insular. We are a small group of a group labeled "apostate" by a small insignificant christian sect. We are a sub set of a sub set of a subset. Nobody outside of this website knows or will ever know who sparlock is. And I'm not talking about people who aren't witnesses. I mean witnesses and ex witnesses. Most witness parents will get the DVD because it's what they are supposed to do. They will pop it in the DVD player for their kid, watch five minutes of it, roll their eyes and leave, and then when the show is over they will put it back in the case and leave it in a DVD drawer some where never to think about it again. Given how much B.S. they swallow on a week to week basis, this will not even register as a blip on the radar. Its easy to think that it will, because we are sane and we have the benefit of perspective. Whenever the society does something absurd we all think "surely they will see the insanity of this!" but they don't. For a long time, we didn't either. Sparlock wouldn't have caused me to leave, or even notice that something was amiss. It would have been another poorly produced children's DVD, and not even the worst one they have ever done.

We can say how out of touch the society is and how insular the JWs are, but when every other topic on this site is trying to drub up face book support for sparlock, or speculating about what the society is REALLY up to with this video, or how hypocritical it is of them to not let us put this up on youtube, it only shows how insular and out of touch we are. If a curious witness came here and saw the wierd and angry furor over a wizard bear, they would think "Wow, the society is right. These people are are mentally diseased with arguments of words." and be on their way. Sparlock doesn't matter to anyone outside of this website, he is not some wierd apostate icon. And if he is, then that is very sad for us.