has anybody here, had a look at the "online friends message board".
http://jwstartpage.homestead.com/discussion.html.
what a prime example this is, of the total control syndrome operated by the wbts and fostered among its adherents.. .
Hello Spero,
nice to have you here!
Thanks for your interesting information...
I wonder who can possibly enjoy an interchange
of ideas, opinions and informations under such
"strange" and " restrictive" rules.
Btw, your "name" sounds ...very - hopefull -,
greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
as the time passes , the wtbs inc. did ...slowly but steadily decline the use of the expression .. the increase is a proof of jehovahs blessing on his people..!.
now, in the year 2002 it has surfaced again, .
publishers for 1972 i.e.
Hello Everyone,
thanks for the comments.
From Nicoloau :
« And when you subtract the JWs that are there for appearance sake, who are there to maintain their families intact but who no longer believe, who are 15-minute ministers, the numbers become even more paltry. The society attempts to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. »
Great and really nicely worded. So now, what’s lefts really ?
From OldHippie :
« So there is no mystery about these figures, it's just plain demography and statistics. As to some other figures, there are mysteries, I'll try to calculate those ones later. »
Thanks for you precise comments. Please remember that some of my quetions are..
rethorical...just for those who wish to justify avery action of the WTBS Inc.
Your points are correct. Btw, sometimes trhey did quote « 35,000, 40,000 .. »
and even more disfellowshipped every year but they added that sometimes
30-50% of them are reintegrated !!
I’m eagerly waiting ...for your calculations. Thanks.
Perry, thanks for the comments.
« ...whose sole shepherding tool for healing those in need is cold "do more" counsel or disfellowshipment so that they don't have deal with the problems. »
It looks like ..the only reason that the « Elders « are left there, and from what we hear,
it’s a worldwide problem.
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
as the time passes , the wtbs inc. did ...slowly but steadily decline the use of the expression .. the increase is a proof of jehovahs blessing on his people..!.
now, in the year 2002 it has surfaced again, .
publishers for 1972 i.e.
Hello again,
thanks for your comments.
From Dmouse
'Of course, the number of those associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses is not a criterion for determining if they enjoy divine favor.'
Very interesting, and I do think that this one proves the point:
continually contradicting past and even future statements.
From Iarc :
I do agree with you. As a matter of fact I aslo left out the ...dead ones
(unknown % ...0.3, 0.2 % par year), those who have “ dissociated”
themeselves, those who have been “disfellowshipped “every year
by the WTBS Inc, those who have been and clearly are ..”.inactives”!
My added point is, to give arel meaning to all the figures, for which I
could go back many and many years more, why the WTBS Inc., doesn’t
give the all picture, ...black and white for everyone to see. After all
it is the WTBS Inc., who wrote in the 1971 ‘ Theocratic School
Guide ‘ book:
*** sg 110 21 Informative Material, Clearly Presented ***
9 Accuracy of statement. Jehovah’s witnesses are an organization of truth.
We should want to speak the truth and be absolutely accurate in every detail at all times.
This should be so not only as regards doctrine but also in our quotations, what we say about others or how we represent them, also in matters involving scientific data or news events."
Do they a^pply it to themselves??
From SaintSatan:
“Well you see mac, jehovah is sifting the nations, so to speak. He has his net out. It catches all kinds of fish. Those millions are the undesirable fish that he threw back. The weeds, goats, evil slave etc. Although there is a bit of a problem w that allegory since 1995. In 1995, the wt said that the sheep and goats are not to be separated until the trib.”
Please try to be more clear in your point, what are you really..saying?
From Bodhisattva
“No one beats the Watchtower in playing with numbers.”
I do agree with you on this one, 100% !
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
as the time passes , the wtbs inc. did ...slowly but steadily decline the use of the expression .. the increase is a proof of jehovahs blessing on his people..!.
now, in the year 2002 it has surfaced again, .
publishers for 1972 i.e.
Hello Flip,
thanks for your comment. I'm very pleased that
this research interested you. Btw, my qustion about the
vast majority of the JW's been informed about these figures,
it's directed more to the great ' apologists' , who visit
regularly this Forum.
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
as the time passes , the wtbs inc. did ...slowly but steadily decline the use of the expression .. the increase is a proof of jehovahs blessing on his people..!.
now, in the year 2002 it has surfaced again, .
publishers for 1972 i.e.
Hello everyone,
as the time passes , the WTBS Inc. did ...slowly but steadily decline the use of the expression “.. the increase is a proof of Jehovah’s blessing on his people..”!
Now, in the year 2002 it has surfaced again,
with a little modification.
Let’s take the quote “ The Watchtower “ July
1, 2002 page 13 § 17, scond part:
“Now it is the time for Jehovah to express mercy to his anointed servants and their
other sheep companions. The evidence that this is so is the extraordinary increase with which he has blessed them, ‘beautifying them’ as it were.”
Let’s continue in § 18:
“ Each year , hundreds of thousands of additional “ foreigners” associate with
Jehovah’s organisation, and the way will remain open for many more to follow them.”
It is clear from these word the the “evidence “
of “Jehovah’s mercy” is the “extraordinary
increase with which he has blessed them”.
Now, if we were their own figures ,
for ex. the last 29 years , this kind of statement would appear rather odd.
As a matter of fact, the total average publishers for the year 1972
was ......1,592,442
Since the total number of baptized from 1973 to 2001 was................6,967,029 this would give a ‘theoretical’ total of average of baptized publishers of.............8,563,471 !
Unfortunately, for the WTBS Inc. this figure is very different from the total average publishers given – officially –for the year 2001 i.e. 5,881,776 !
So, this begs a first question : where are the ...missing 2,681,695 publishers since
1973???
Remember that this would correspond
to an average of 92,472 publishers
missing every year for the last 29 years!!!
Even if we were to take the “ peak
publishers “ for 1972 i.e. 1,658,990
adding the total number of baptized ones
since 1973, i.e. 6,967,029 this would still
give us a ‘‘theoretical’ total of average of baptized publishers of.............8,626,019 !!
This second ‘count ‘ would still leave us with
a problem, because the official figure for the
‘peak publishers ‘ for the year 2001 it’s ...
only ....6,117,666 !!!
All this in turn would beg a second question:
where are the ...missing 2,445,805 publishers since 1973???
Remember that this would correspond
to an average of 84,338 publishers
missing every year for the last 29 years!!!
Now back to the first quote from the watchtower ‘s
recent article, is this
“extraordinary increase” the “evidence “
“with which he has blessed them...”?
Is vast majority of the JW’s , aware
of the real figures?
Your comments are welcome.
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
oveja asked me to start a thread on this with the following statement;.
"i spoke to a jw & she told me that they are aware of the child abuse cases.
her opinion was that the elders are under the "confidentiality laws" & that's why they didn't do any reportings.
Hello DakotaRed,
an excellent point!
I do agreee with your statement:
"I still find it amazing that JWs can claim clerical privilege in not reporting child abuse allegations, yet also claim they have no clergy! "
and also the - obvious reason:
"The statement also shows me one way they are brainwashing the rank and file to carry forth their cover-up of the situation."
Which recalls the famous word: " h i p o c r i s y "!
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
http://www.xso.com/news/stories/arena.htm .
more important, he says, is the sweetheart deal thewitnesses got from the city.
while the group agreed to pay $12.5 million for the entire 72-acre tract, it immediately plan to sell 44 acres.. the reported asking price?
Hello Somebody,
thanks for the news..!
Another one in the file for the greed and
money lover WTBS Inc.
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
what is the purpose of the kingdom ministry?.
the 1995 october 15th watchtower stated that the parable of the sheep and the goats will be fulfilled some time after the great tribulation.. up till that time jws were led to believe they were engaged in a separating work in fulfilment of that sheep and goats parable.
but from 1995 on, the watchtowers increasing new light shifted the emphasis from a separating to a preparatory work.. this leads to questions : what is the purpose of their kingdom ministry and in what way does it prepare people?.
Hello Radar,
congratulation for this interesting post.
I do really like this parts:
****"For those that never receive a “Witness” before the Great tribulation, it is said that God will look into their hearts and judge accordingly.
Which begs another question as to why God cannot do this without the aid of JWs?"
and:
****"While attending the 5 weekly meeting per week, seduces the average JW into believing that the whole world knows about this Kingdom message.
In reality the majority of people in the world have no idea what they are talking about, and I suspect, these days the average JW does not either."
Very logical indeed...but no answer from the WTBS Inc.
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
i must say that as a neutral scientific observer of this site--it seems that things are kind of one-sided here.
i thought this was a board with both devout jws and ex-jws on it.
on further reflection it appears that this medium of communication should probably be called ex-jw.com.
Hello Eutapro,
thanks for your post. A very strange way to phrase yourself
indeed. I do agree with Alan:
"Your comments indicate that, far from being a neutral observer, you're here to stir the pot and see what turns up. This gives the lie to your comment that "objectivity and openness are important for us intellectual academics", since it's obvious that you're neither objective, open, intellectual, nor an academic."
Are you trying to defend the ...lies, the changes in doctrines
annd all the rest of the damage from the WTBS Inc. ??
Do you or have you really read many of the posts here??
Have you taken time to think about the many issues, some
of them really ..sad and painfull to relate??
What is it really , behind your "scientific " approach?
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
i'm sure that many of you remember this kind.
of catch phrase used in the publications of thewtbs inc.. .. for the sake of clarity let's give some of the quotes from the.
book : .
Hello everyone,
To follow up this thread
I have traced what I would like to call the....beginning of a change???
*** w55 6/15 370 Dedication to Jehovah ***
6 The creation of Jehovah God with which we are acquainted and which is lower than man never fails in its purpose, testifying to the power of God. But integrity, love, uprightness, these and other related qualities, do not apply below man. They apply to man and on up in the scale of God’s creation. They are qualities of worship.
Worship, pure religion, is exclusively possible for that part of God’s creation that is intelligent.”
NOTICE: now religion it is called WORSHIP,...
then worship is equal to:
pure religion.
Another 15 years and the emphasis is mainly on “ w o r s h i p “
as this article shows:
*** w70 11/15 690-1 The Need to Know What We Worship ***
24 The anointed remnant of “people who are knowing their God” have lived up to the prophecy that foretold how they would “act effectively.” The record as published over the years proves this. Their work has not been without the effect promised in the infallible Word of God. They have imparted the all-necessary understanding to “the many” till now. This they have done by means of spreading the magazine The Watchtower now published in seventy-three languages, by the circulation from house to house of other Bible literature in 165 languages, yes, by the printing and distributing of a number of Bible versions of which they have the ownership in a number of languages. And not only by putting these Bibles and Bible study aids in the hands of the people, but by personally carrying on free studies in the Bible itself in the homes of the people who are dissatisfied at worshiping what they do not know.
25 Their taking this action has been effective under Jehovah’s blessing. Particularly since the year 1935 C.E. a “great crowd” of persons has been responding in all the nations, tribes, peoples and languages where this imparting of Bible understanding could be carried forward. They have given up worshiping what they do not know at various places considered sacred, religiously holy. They have been helped to worship the only God worthy of being worshiped. They do not go up to Mount Gerizim or to Jerusalem in Israel to worship him. They do not worship him mechanically or ceremonially, but in the real spirit of worship by faith and with the Bible truth they worship him, wherever they are.
26 They worship him at his true sanctuary, his spiritual temple not made with human hands, serving him day and night there in righteousness, pictured by white robes that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb Jesus Christ. In worship to the God whom they know, they cry out in unity: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”—Rev. 7:9-15.
27 These worshipers of what they know have not kept their knowledge, insight and understanding to themselves. In full dedication to God they have joined the anointed “holy people” who “are knowing their God,” and are imparting understanding to still others and spreading spiritual enlightenment to them. Persecution has not stopped them any more than it has stopped the anointed remnant since 1919 C.E. They also will prevail and continue to “act effectively” until the “great tribulation” comes shortly upon their persecutors and these are no more.
28 Thereafter this earth will be a clean place for all those who are “knowing their God” and who are worshiping him with spirit and truth. “
Another 12 years and is now it is a question of “ right religion v wrong religion “
“false religion v true religion”
*** w82 3/1 7-9 Can We Find the Right One? ***
Can We Find the Right One?
WHEN we know where all this religious diversity started, it becomes easier to answer this question: Which is the right religion? Clearly, the true religion is the one that cannot be traced back to that ancient rebellion against the true Source of life.
The Encyclopedia of World Religions makes an interesting comment that can help us here. It says: “The religions of the world may be roughly divided into two types—the prophetic and the mystical. . . . the prophetic [ultimately derives] from the Jews.”
According to the Biblical record, the ancestors of the Jews did not join in the rebellion at Babel against the true Source of life. Their ancestral line includes such men as Shem, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who were known for sticking to the pure worship of God. In fact, Abraham is called “Jehovah’s friend.” “Jehovah” is the name of the true God, as specifically stated in the Bible. (Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; James 2:23) Do any people today worship Jehovah in the way that Abraham did?
A Line of True Worshipers
Because of Abraham’s faithfulness, Jehovah God promised that his descendants would eventually become a special nation in His eyes. This promise was fulfilled in the ancient Israelites. They heard God say: “If you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me.”—Exodus 19:5.
For many years the worship of Jehovah was kept alive on earth by means of the Jews, although they often fell into sin and apostasy. Nevertheless, Jehovah repeatedly told them that he was going to send a special messenger who would bring salvation to mankind. After 1,500 years, this one appeared. He was Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, by the time Jesus arrived, the Jews had strayed a long way from Jehovah. They still claimed to worship him, but, as Jesus told some of their religious leaders: “You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.” (Matthew 15:1, 6) Because the Jews opposed Jesus, they were rejected by God. Jesus warned them: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”—Matthew 21:43.
Christianity
That “nation” turned out to be the Christian congregation. These were the ones who accepted Jesus Christ when the Jews, as a whole, rejected him, and God blessed the loyal ones for their faith. Not long after Jesus’ death, God miraculously empowered Jesus’ true followers to speak in foreign tongues—not in senseless gibberish, but in actual languages that others could understand. Healings, resurrections and other miracles added weight to the fact that here, indeed, was the “nation” that God was using.—Hebrews 2:4; compare Acts 2:1-4; 3:1-10; 9:32-41; 20:7-12.
‘But surely,’ you might say, ‘Christianity is as confused today as the rest of the world’s religions. Hundreds of groups call themselves Christian, yet they all differ from one another and contradict one another. How did this come about?’
History shows that many Christians did exactly the same as the Jews had done. They apostatized. They mixed Jesus’ message with doctrines from other religions. Thus they started to teach doctrines, such as three persons in one god (the Trinity), that originated from non-Christian and non-Jewish sources.
From where, actually, did those teachings come? Regarding the Trinity, one scholar wrote: “Nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.” (The Paganism in Our Christianity, by Arthur Weigall) The same can be said for the doctrine of the immortal soul, the widespread use of images, the popularity of astrology and many other familiar teachings and practices of Christendom. They can be traced not to the original worship of the true Source of life but to that ancient religious rebellion in Mesopotamia.
However, not all Christians were corrupted. Jesus himself warned of this very apostasy, but promised that true religion would survive right to the end. (Matthew 13:18-30) How, then, can we locate it today?
Finding the True Religion
Jesus gave a rule for recognizing true religion. He said: “Every good tree produces fine fruit.” Bad fruitage would identify the false religion, and good fruits would reveal the true.—Matthew 7:15-20.
What is the fruitage that the true religion will bring forth? The accompanying box contains a list of some such fruits, as told to us in the Bible. If you compare this list with all the religions you are acquainted with, we are sure you will quickly recognize which does and which does not have the truth.
However, you will need to examine the list carefully. For example, you will note that one mark of true religion is ‘having genuine love.’ Now, most religions say they have such love. But if cheating in business, immorality, or selfishness are widespread among the members of a religion, do they really love one another? And if they are prepared to kill one another in revolutions or wars, how genuine is their love? Similarly, another mark is that “all their beliefs are based on the Bible.” Of course, members of most religions in Christendom think that theirs is. But do you know a religion where all members have taken the trouble to open their Bibles to see if this is true of their beliefs?
If you have any problems in your search, Jehovah’s Witnesses will be glad to help you.
It is, indeed, worth the effort to seek for the true religion. Man instinctively feels the need of a better life than he now enjoys. The true religion can point us toward that life. We naturally ask such questions as these: “Why are we here?” “What is the purpose of life?” True religion can put us in touch with the Source of all life, Jehovah God, who will answer those questions for us. Moreover, sometimes all of us desperately need guidance in solving the problems we face from day to day. True religion can give us that guidance.
Yes, there is a true religion, and we can find it. Our doing so will bring eternal benefits, for the Bible promises us: “As for those seeking Jehovah, they will not lack anything good.”—Psalm 34:10.”
And in the same year:
From the book : “..Live forever..” (published in 1982 by the WTBS Inc.)
*** pe 31 3 Your Religion Really Matters ***
15 Since many religions today are not doing God’s will, we cannot simply assume that the teachings of the religious organization we are associated with are in agreement with God’s Word.
The mere fact that the Bible is used by a religion does not of itself prove that all the things it teaches and practices are in the Bible.
It is important that we ourselves examine whether they are or not. Persons in the city of Beroea were commended because, after the Christian apostle Paul preached to them, they checked the Scriptures to make sure that the things he was telling them were true. (Acts 17:10, 11)
The religion that is approved by God must agree in every way with the Bible; it will not accept certain parts of the Bible and reject other parts.—2 Timothy 3:16.”
And for all who use “ sincerity as an excuse :
*** pe 31-2 3 Your Religion Really Matters ***
SINCERITY ALONE NOT ENOUGH
16 But someone may ask: ‘If a person is sincere in his beliefs, won’t God approve of him even if his religion is wrong?’ Well, Jesus said he would not approve of “workers of lawlessness” even though they believed they were doing what was right. (Matthew 7:22, 23) So sincerity alone would not be approved by God either. Once Jesus told his followers: “The hour is coming when everyone that kills you will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God.” (John 16:2) Such killers of Christians might sincerely believe that they were thereby serving God, but clearly they were not. God does not approve of what they did.
17 Before he became a Christian, the apostle Paul helped in the murder of Stephen. Later, he looked for ways to kill more Christians. (Acts 8:1; 9:1, 2) Paul explained: “To the point of excess I kept on persecuting the congregation of God and devastating it, and I was making greater progress in Judaism than many of my own age in my race, as I was far more zealous for the traditions of my fathers.” (Galatians 1:13, 14) Yes, Paul was sincere, but that did not make his religion right.
18 At the time, Paul was a member of the Jewish religious system, which had rejected Jesus Christ, and so it, in turn, was rejected by God. (Acts 2:36, 40; Proverbs 14:12) So to gain God’s approval Paul needed to change his religion. He also wrote of others who had “a zeal for God”—who were sincere but were not approved by God because their religion was not based on accurate knowledge of God’s purposes.—Romans 10:2, 3.”
In conclusion how far they have gone from
being against... ALL RELIGIONS in general!
Tipical turning of any kind of teaching.
Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
