Posts by MadApostate

589

MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

by hawkaw in

as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

MadApostate

Brother Brumley certainly appears to have been a busy little beaver for the GB; running all over the globe politikin' and lobbying for "all people to worship freely according to the dictates of their conscience."

It appears that BroBrumley is the typical lawyer, in that he will not allow absolute truth to stand in the way of what he is really after.
Note his resume:

-----------------------------------------

Mr. Philip Brumley is General Counsel to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and works at the world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses in New York, USA. As such he also serves as General Counsel of Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, the legal entity used by Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide. Mr. Brumley has spoken on the rights of religious minorities at various locations in the United States as well as in Argentina, Brazil and Cuba. Under Mr. Brumley's direction, the Watch Tower Society's Legal Department has submitted dozens of briefs to the High Courts of the United States and various other countries, and the European Court of Human Rights. Mr. Brumley is interested not only in the religious rights of Jehovah's Witnesses, but in the rights of all people to worship freely according to the dictates of their conscience.

589

MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

by hawkaw in

as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

MadApostate

Is this what constitutes being politically neutral, as well as avoidance of interfaith functions?

-----------------------------------------------
EDITED:

TAKING RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS SERIOUSLY: THE IMPACT OF THE EUROPEAN CONVENTIONS ON HUMAN RIGHTS'

IMPERIAL COLLEGE,
LONDON,

JANUARY 6 AND 7, 1999.

Report from Paul Stevenson,
Britain correspondent for
Human Rights Without Frontiers.
*****************************************************

HRWF (13.01.1999) - Can changes in the law change attitudes? Can winning cases in the European Court of Human Rights win arguments? Will implementing the new UK Human Rights Act establish religious freedom and respect for the beliefs of minorities, including the 2,600 new religions?

Which is likelier to protect our freedom in Britain to believe and worship as we choose: the unwritten British constitution with its 'tradition of tolerance' built up over the centuries, or the European Convention on Human Rights?

Fifty-five lawyers, academics, human rights activists, and representatives of various religious traditions who attended a two-day seminar at Imperial College, London, on January 6 and 7 to debate the probable impact of the Human Rights Act on the religious freedom of the 750,000,000 people of the EC's 14 member states, were cautiously optimistic. Some of the lawyers -and Willy Fautré-took the pragmatic view, that only the admonitory effect of losing landmark cases under Articles 8 and 9 of the Human Rights Act -like Kokkinakis v. Greece (1993) and Hoffman v. Austria (1993)-would cause member states to temper what Willy Fautré called "the hysterical anti-cult atmosphere" emanating from France and other states that are adopting a similar approach to minority religions.

Others, like Anthony Bradney, University of Leicester senior law lecturer, held that "a new activist judiciary" with access to a different European jurisprudence would ensure believers' being "nurtured by the state" and "more fully valued as citizens", concluding that although in some areas "the impact of the Act will … be slight," overall, "it is going to have a huge effect on the relationship between religion and the law." His colleague, Peter Cumper, raised the possibility of judges ruling on issues which were essentially matters of religious doctrine; but thought that, on
balance, erosion of religious freedom in a land where the Queen is both Head of State and Head of the established church, would be countered by the courts' "putting a British spin on the Human Rights Act."

Still others, including Roger Ballard of the University of Manchester's Department of Religions, found the ECHR to be so "hedged around with limitations in the area of practice that it is unlikely to offer any significant advance". Norman Doe, senior lecturer and Director of the Centre for Law and Religion at Cardiff Law School, reviewed the history of
litigation involving disaffected members of the Jewish, Islamic, Sikh, Hindu and Anglican faiths. He concluded that the new UK legislation was unlikely to lead to wholesale reversal of the decision of ecclesiastical courts in such areas as canon law, discipline of members, freedom of information, and marriage.

Dr David Robertson, Fellow of St Hugh's College, Oxford, said that the choice is between two different approaches: the "highly developed jurisprudence of the US Supreme Court" with its wall between church and State, and the jurisprudence of the ECHR which tends "towards privileging the claims of religion against the claim of those who are … hostile to religion." The new Act "would seem to incline the UK courts towards the European approach, but cultural factors and the natural tendency of the UK's higher courts are likely to lean them towards the American approach."

This latter point was taken up enthusiastically by Philip Brumley, general counsel to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses: "A bedrock liberty of Anglo-American common and constitutional law is that issues of religious belief are an absolute freedom and that religious practices may be
circumscribed only by a compelling State interest. Even then, the State must find the least restrictive means to achieve this interest…. the Anglo-American tradition has been to allow the individual to determine which belief he will profess, if any at all."

He contrasted this with the German Enquete Commission's collection of
evidence about religious minorities in secret, from interested parties, and without rigorous examination of objective credentials or allowing for cross-examination or refutation. The ensuing 1998 report suggested that granting public corporation status to religious organisations "considered in the light of the increasingly enigmatic market in religious and ideological groups offering salvation, as well as others, could develop into a type of government quality stamp, in which 'consumers' would have
special confidence."

Philip Brumley said that "right across Europe governments are informing their populaces of which religions have so-called 'government consumer protect seals of approval' and which religions are disfavoured. Events in Europe clearly show that even fundamental religious freedoms that one would have only recently considered to be beyond impeachment are now very seriously hanging in the balance." He pointed to M. Alain Vivien, Chairman of the French Interministerial Mission to Fight Against Cults, who had railed against America's First Amendment precisely because it precludes state evaluation of religious belief. His hope is that: "cooler minds will prevail in the question of how society should view new religious movements and those who belong to minority religions... Perhaps aided by Italy, Denmark and Sweden, the United Kingdom will take the lead in protecting
religious liberties, and in dissipating religious prejudice wherever it is found."

Several academic contributors saw the rising religious intolerance engendered by professional 'anti-cultists' in Europe as a social rather than a legal malaise. Professor Eileen Barker, from the London School of Economics' Department of Sociology, outlined how anti-cultism (described by Martyn Percy, a director of the Lincoln Institute for the Study of Religion and Society as "today's anti-Semitism") operates. Its practitioners apply the label 'cult' or 'sect' to minority religions, with the inference that
these are "nasty, satanic, unnatural, not normal". They compile emotive but unscientific reports, mainly from ex-members' testimony, and put what they stigmatise as 'dangerous cults' on 'hit lists'. These may have no standing in law, but have powerful persuasive effect. This has led to citizens being unable to rent property, to punitive taxation of minority religious bodies by the State, to children being excluded from school, or being arbitrarily removed from parents in disputed custody cases, and to the police turning a blind eye to violence and kidnapping.

"Laws and Conventions can certainly suggest, but they cannot dictate the way we treat 'the other'. The same can be said of the media, the educational system, the workplace and the family," Professor Barker said. She gave an example of discrediting by use of selective terminology: "Compare these two statements; the children were brought up as Catholics, and the children were indoctrinated by their Witness parents."

Some comments from the delegates :
...Vedhyas Adbutha, a monk in the Mandorom monastery in the south of France, said his hope for the ECHR was "for us to be respected, and to get our rights in France. Since 1988 we have been asking to be recognised as a congregation, but officials treat us with contempt. They use planning and tax laws to make us look like criminals, but we have never been convicted of any offence."

589

MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

by hawkaw in

as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

MadApostate

Hawkaw:

I was really hoping that the audience would pick up on the fact that the WTS has actually been participating in the "world's political process" for the past 10+ years, and thus have become "part of the world".

Note these remarks by the Russian legislator in my last post above:

In this connection, Deputy Shishlov noted that NGOs have become a significant segment of the political landscape in Russia and expressed appreciation for the efforts of NGOs from abroad who assist Russia in human rights efforts.

The website heavyweights here should create a separate section of their website devoted to all these "proofs/examples" of how the WTS has been, in reality, involved in the world's political processes for the past decade.

15

Judah Schroeder and the Helsinki Kommission!

by Kent in

jw
friends

pressrelease from bellona usa .

congressional briefing .

helsinki commission joins russian parliamentarian in human rights, nikitin debate.

MadApostate

Kent:

If I can squeeze in between you and OH for a sec.

144 is correct. Schroeder was only participating in this hearing. The WTS is not a member of HC/OSCE/CSCE.

10

Visit to UN

by wannahelp in

jw
friends

i had my day with the "beast" <rofl>... funny, the un seemed pretty nice.. i wasn't even scared <g>.. i even learned quite a bit about the un itself... unfortunatly, i could not get my hands on a hard copy of the ngo list.

everyone i talked to said they are out of stock currently, and having new ones printed up.. (gee, i wonder why <g>).... and, i didn't even try to get to the library because of all the security.. they were just crawling everywhere.. every room had a police officer in it, just standing there, even if the room was empty!!!.

i had to actually walk 3 blocks to get to the united nations, as they won't let anyone in a car within 3 blocks of the complex (including taxi's).. .

MadApostate

Blue:

The Vatican has "observer status" at the UN, which far exceeds any status which any NGOs maintain.

It is not neutral by any means.

589

MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

by hawkaw in

as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

MadApostate

Kent's separate thread motivated the look for this. As a different poster points out in Kent's thread, the WTS is not part of the Helsinki Commission, but notice the remarks made in this report:

-----------------------------------

Russian Legislator Addresses Helsinki Commission

(Washington, DC — Russian Duma Deputy Alexandr Shishlov, a member of the Yabloko Party from St. Petersburg, addressed a Helsinki Commission briefing on March 24 providing his assessment of the political and human rights situation in Russia.

Attending the briefing were Chairman Rep. Christopher Smith (R-NY), Rep. Ben Cardin (D-MD), Rep. Michael Forbes (R-NY), Rep. Edward Markey (D-MA), Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA), and Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-HI).

In a prepared statement, Shishlov noted that political developments in Russia have been hampered over the past few years by a lack of political infrastructure, undeveloped civil society, and problems in relations between the central government and the regions.
With regard to human rights and the rise in anti-Semitism and extremism, Shishlov stated that Russia's poor economy has served as a breeding ground for such attitudes: "Poverty is the best soil for communism, nationalism, and anti-Semitism...we may say that anti-Semitism had been the state policy in Soviet times, when communists ruled the country, and now it is once again the voice of communists."

More dangerous, in Shishlov's opinion, however, has been the lack of strong reaction from governmental bodies.

Attempts in the Duma to condemn anti-Semitic statements made by General Makashov, for instance, have been blocked by the communists in the Duma. [note: On March 23, 1999 the House of Representatives passed unanimously a resolution condemning anti-Semitic statements made by members of the Russian Duma.

The House resolution was introduced by Chairman Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ), Ranking Member Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (D-MD) and all House Commissioners. A similar resolution sponsored by Commission Co-Chairman Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-CO), Ranking Minority Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and eight other Senators, is pending in the Senate.]

Deputy Shishlov noted the scheduled parliamentary elections in December 1999, and sees them as indicators of "Whether we continue with oligarch rule, or travel the road to democracy."

Joining Mr. Shishlov at the briefing were several other speakers involved in human rights issues in Russia: Thomas Jandl of the Bellona Foundation, Judah Schroeder of the Watch Tower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses, Leonid Stonov of the Moscow Human Rights Monitors, Steve Mills of the Sierra Club, and Micah Naftalin of the Union of Councils for Soviet Jewry. They briefed Members and the public on such issues as the case of environmental "whistle blower" Alexandr Nikitin and Russia's environmental situation overall; anti-Semitism, political extremism, and the criminalization of Russian society; and continuing difficulties for Jehovah's Witnesses and other religious minorities in Russia.

In this connection, Deputy Shishlov noted that NGOs have become a significant segment of the political landscape in Russia and expressed appreciation for the efforts of NGOs from abroad who assist Russia in human rights efforts. He cautioned, however, that ignorance of Russia has undermined some efforts at assistance.

Chairman Smith noted that several Members of the Commission are interested in attending the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly meeting scheduled to take place in St. Petersburg in July. Deputy Shishlov expressed the hope that Members would attend and invited them to visit the Yabloko headquarters in St. Petersburg.

61

Watchtower's Secret Agenda

by cyrano in

jw
friends

it has been recorded in his own material, his admittance to being a freemason.

" i am very glad to have this particular opportunity of saying a word about some of the things in which we agree with our masonic friends, because we are speaking in a building dedicated to masonry, and we also are masons.

i am a freemason.

MadApostate

sKally:

Actually I'm an Illuminati/Mason operative. I've been sent here to try to keep you and your friends from "spilling the beans".

We have had YOU under surveillance for the past year.

If you keep this up, we will be forced to bring in "the team".

NO ONE CAN STOP US.

NO ONE WILL STAND IN OUR WAY.

WE WILL RULE THE WORLD!!!

61

Watchtower's Secret Agenda

by cyrano in

jw
friends

it has been recorded in his own material, his admittance to being a freemason.

" i am very glad to have this particular opportunity of saying a word about some of the things in which we agree with our masonic friends, because we are speaking in a building dedicated to masonry, and we also are masons.

i am a freemason.

MadApostate

Russell was a "pyramidologist". BIGTIME. My understanding is that some, if not most, current BS still are. Maybe RR can speak to this.

How many times did Russell visit the pyramids? My sources tell me that the BS and the WTS have many, many photos of Russell and his traveling companions (including my favorite: U.S. Army General William Hall) posing at the Pyramids and Sphinx, but neither group will publish such for obvious reasons.

It's been a while since I looked at this subject, so RR, or anyone else in the know hopefully will correct any error, but Morton Edgar and his father were two of the most prominent pyramidologists in the world. Russell came on the scheme after pyramidology had already been introduced to the Second Adventist community by George Storrs and others. When Russell started gaining additional publicity for the issue, the Edgars became BS, with Morton even being elected a corporate officer in the early 1910s.

The various Egyptian imagery used by Russell derived from Pyramidology, NOT FROM MASONRY, who also used imagery which derived from the Egypt and other parts of the Middle East.

In the very 1913? speech which the NUTS quote, he plainly states that he was not a member of Masonry. He also said such many years prior to that in the WT magazine, plus made some derogatory comments about Masonry.

Dino, and the other conspiracy NUTS can kiss my ass. I've only been a member here for 3 months, and I believe this is the third time this ludicrous accusation has had to be dealt with.

We finally get an issue (UN) which is likely drawing new lurkers to this website, and what greets them but a bunch of FUCKING IDIOTS spouting global conspiracy theories.

The WTS should make all of you honorary members of the GB!

589

MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

by hawkaw in

as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

MadApostate

It appears that JWs were well represented at the United Nations Conference on National Minorities, held in Geneva, in May 1999, which was where the Macedonian Human Rights Movement of Canada hooked up with the WTS. (see previous post)

------------------------------------------------------

5. The session was attended by the following independent experts of the Sub-Commission as decided by the Sub-Commission at its forty-seventh session (decision 1995/119) and at its forty-ninth session (decision 1997/111): Mr. Miguel Alfonso Martínez (Mr. José Bengoa's alternate), Mr. Asbjørn Eide, Mr. Vladimir Kartashkin, Mr. Mustapha Mehedi and Ms. Deepika Udagama (Mr. Soli Sorabjee's designated alternate).

6. The following States Members of the United Nations were represented by observers: Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Brazil, China, Colombia, Cuba, Czech Republic, Estonia, Ethiopia, Finland, Germany, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Uruguay.

7. The following non-member States were represented by observers: Switzerland.

8. The following United Nations bodies and specialized agencies and intergovernmental organizations were represented at the session: United Nations Children's Fund, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, International Labour Organization, World Health Organization.

9. The following non-governmental organizations in consultative status with the Economic and Social Council were represented by observers:

General consultative status

International Association for Religious Freedom

Special consultative status

Baha'i International Community, Canadian Human Rights Foundation, Caritas Internationalis, Federal Union of European Nationalities, Fraternité Notre Dame, Indian Movement "Tupaj Amaru", International Association against Torture, International Centre for Ethnic Studies, International Council of Jewish Women, Interfaith International, International Federation of Human Rights Leagues, International Organization for the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, International Service for Human Rights, National Society for Human Rights and World Muslim Congress.

Roster

Association of World Citizens, Caucasians United for Reparations and Emancipation, Minority Rights Group, International Human Rights Association of American Minorities, International Movement against All Forms of Discrimination and Racism and Soka Gakkai International.

10. The following other non-governmental organizations were represented by observers: Adalah-Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, African Americans in the United States of America, African Bureau of Educational Sciences, African Indigenous and Minority Peoples Organization, Ahmadiyya Muslim Association, American Friends Service Committee, Arab Association for Human Rights, Association culturelle berbere, Association of Jehovah's Witnesses, Association of Western Thrace Minority Graduates, Assyrian Universal Alliance, Bahrain Human Rights Organization, Black Reparations Commission, Canadian-Egyptian Organization for Human Rights, Centre for the Advancement of Women, Centre for the Coordination of Non-Governmental Tribal Development Organizations, Centre for Documentation and Information in Europe, Centre for Human, Civil and Autonomous Rights, Centre for International and Comparative Law, Centre for the Protection of Minorities and Against Racism and Discrimination in Bhutan, Centro de Derechos Humanos, Ciudadanos y Autonómicos, Christian Solidarity Worldwide, Delhi Forum-Banjara People, Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania, Droit des minorités indigènes au Cameroon, Espacio Afroamericano, European Association of Jehovah's Witnesses for the Protection of Religious Freedom, European Centre for Minority Issues, Fafan Development Organization, Ford Foundation, High Commissioner Consultant for Minority Groups in San Andreas, Human Rights Alliance, Human Rights Commission of Northern Ireland, Human Rights Committee-World Wide Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, Human Rights Defence Group, Indo?American Kashmir Forum, Indo-Canadian Kashmir Forum, Indo-European Kashmir Forum, Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, Kurdish Human Rights Project, Kurdish Reconstruction Organization, Legal Centre for Arab Minority in Israel, Legal Information Centre for Human Rights, Ligua Pro Europa, Macedonian Human Rights Movement in Greece, Macedonian Human Rights Movement of Canada, Mécs Laszlo Association, Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People, Million Youth March Organisation, Minelres, Movement for the Survival of the Ogoni People, National Commission for Minorities, National Commission for Reparations, N'COBRA-The National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations in America, National Movement for the Human Rights of the Afro-Colombian Communities-Cimarron, National Society for Human Rights of Namibia, Pan African International Nationalist Movement, Proceso de Comunidades Negras de Colombia, Rescue Ethiopian Pastoralists, Research and Support of the Indigenous Peoples of the Crimea Foundation, Romani Centre for Social Intervention and Study, Romanian Institute for Human Rights, Sikh Human Rights Group, Solai Program, Southern Cameroon Peoples' Conference, Summer Institute of Linguistics, Swiss Federal Commission against Racism, Uganda Land Alliance, Universal Defender of Democracy, Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organisation, Vedika-National Campaign on Dalit Human Rights, Western Thrace Turkish Muslim Minority in Greece, World Federation of Hungarians and Zentralrat Deutscher Roma und Sinti.

11. The following scholars participated in the meetings of the Working Group: Ms. Sophie Albert (University of Paris), Ms. Monica Castelo (University of California), Ms. Jane Cowan (University of Sussex), Ms. Elizabeth Craig (Queen's University of Belfast), Mr. Gyula Csurgai (Geneva Peace Research Institute), Mr. Edward Chaszar (University of Pennsylvania), Ms. María Amor Martín Estebañez (University of Oxford), Mr. Markus Fritzschen (University of Zurich), Mr. Geoff Gilbert (University of Essex), Ms. Marie-Hélène Giroux (University of Québec in Montreal), Ms. Nadja Goetz (University of Ljubljana), Ms. Christine Gosden (University of Liverpool), Mr. Stephan Grigolli (University of Cologne), Ms. Sara Gustafsson (Raoul Wallenberg Institute, University of Lund), Mr. Hurst Hannum (Tufts University), Ms. Christiane Hoehn (Max Planck Institute for International Law), Ms. Irena Ilesic (University of Ljubljana), Ms. Verena Klemenc (University of Ljubljana), Mr. Silis Muhammad, Mr. Javaid Rehman (University of Leeds), Mr. Thomas V. Simon (University of Ljubljana), Ms. Jane Sugarman (Weslyan University), Ms. Li-Ann Thio (University of Cambridge), and Mr. Zhou Yong (Norwegian Institute of Human Rights).

61

Watchtower's Secret Agenda

by cyrano in

jw
friends

it has been recorded in his own material, his admittance to being a freemason.

" i am very glad to have this particular opportunity of saying a word about some of the things in which we agree with our masonic friends, because we are speaking in a building dedicated to masonry, and we also are masons.

i am a freemason.

MadApostate

IDIOTS like you who continue to spout the "Russell was a FreeMason" nonsense are some of the BEST FRIENDS the WTS could ever hope for.

Your HORSESHIT message gets lumped in with the truth about the WTS and contaminates it all.

If you can't do anything but propagate LIES, do the rest of us a favor and find youself another hobby.

YOU are not the WTS's enemy, YOU ARE THE WTS'S BEST FRIEND.