it has been said that the gb are just followers of followers.. they had belived a lie all their lives and have taught others the same.. in another post i've disscussed how i'd like to know more about russell and rutherford.. were they followers of followers or corupt.. many seem to point to rutherford as the bad guy.. even in the societies own books he seems to come off as a dodgy guy.. was russell guenuine in his belief , or was he courupt too?.
so who is mostly to blame for the jw religon russell or rutherford?.
or is it ourselves ,did we just decive ourselves and seek to pass the blame when the truth dawned?.
RR:
Well, you have yet to .....aww, why bother, why waste my consecrated time with you? You're not even worth acknowledging .... see ya!
AND AGAIN, your unsubstantiated remarks elevate your own status ("my consecrated time"), while positioning my own status with respect to yours as "not even worth acknowledging".
Hmmmmmmmm???
it has been said that the gb are just followers of followers.. they had belived a lie all their lives and have taught others the same.. in another post i've disscussed how i'd like to know more about russell and rutherford.. were they followers of followers or corupt.. many seem to point to rutherford as the bad guy.. even in the societies own books he seems to come off as a dodgy guy.. was russell guenuine in his belief , or was he courupt too?.
so who is mostly to blame for the jw religon russell or rutherford?.
or is it ourselves ,did we just decive ourselves and seek to pass the blame when the truth dawned?.
RR:
You stated:
Again, I ask, what purpose would it serve the Bible Students to publish photos of Russell during his world tour? These photos can be seen in the original Convention Reports for those years.
It seems to me that you WANT those photos for your own means, and I am not going to scan my library and support those needs. Had you been honest and just aske me to send you some photos without this charade, I may have done so. So, keep "Anxiously awaiting."Me thinks you are more than a little paranoid. You must be the postman I saw on TV delivering mail while wearing a full-body condom.
What charade or dishonesty has been affected? I asked you to post the "Russell-at-the-Pyramids" photos a couple weeks back, and you ignored my request.
Since you raised the pyramid issue in this thread, I renewed my request.
If you have no fear of the Russell-Pyramidology issue, then post some photos.
I hope that you don't think that readers aren't seeing through YOUR CHARADE.
it has been said that the gb are just followers of followers.. they had belived a lie all their lives and have taught others the same.. in another post i've disscussed how i'd like to know more about russell and rutherford.. were they followers of followers or corupt.. many seem to point to rutherford as the bad guy.. even in the societies own books he seems to come off as a dodgy guy.. was russell guenuine in his belief , or was he courupt too?.
so who is mostly to blame for the jw religon russell or rutherford?.
or is it ourselves ,did we just decive ourselves and seek to pass the blame when the truth dawned?.
RR:
I'll tell you what Mad, you stick with your notes, you are the so called expert, and you can read my notes when their published.
I provide two ZWT articles which contradict your earlier statements, and your only response is to pull out your credentials?
This track record doesn't speak well for how accurate we can expect your book to be.
It appears like you are just preparing the Bible Student's version of the Proclaimers book.
-The Society is just a printing company.
-Russell had no de facto authority over "independent" BS groups.
-Russell not the fds.
ROTFLMAO!!!
as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
Moxy:
The Vatican DOES NOT vote at the UN. That's why it is called an "observer".
it has been said that the gb are just followers of followers.. they had belived a lie all their lives and have taught others the same.. in another post i've disscussed how i'd like to know more about russell and rutherford.. were they followers of followers or corupt.. many seem to point to rutherford as the bad guy.. even in the societies own books he seems to come off as a dodgy guy.. was russell guenuine in his belief , or was he courupt too?.
so who is mostly to blame for the jw religon russell or rutherford?.
or is it ourselves ,did we just decive ourselves and seek to pass the blame when the truth dawned?.
RR:
In an earlier post, you said:
His only "closest relatives" was his natural sister and she died faithful to his cause.
As for Russell's sister, again my notes indicate that she left during the 1909 schism. If my notes are wrong, why is it so difficult for YOU, the preeminent WBTS historian, to provide evidence that Land did not break from Russell in 1909?
Based on your record thus far, I'll stick with my notes until you or someone else provides evidence to the contrary.
it has been said that the gb are just followers of followers.. they had belived a lie all their lives and have taught others the same.. in another post i've disscussed how i'd like to know more about russell and rutherford.. were they followers of followers or corupt.. many seem to point to rutherford as the bad guy.. even in the societies own books he seems to come off as a dodgy guy.. was russell guenuine in his belief , or was he courupt too?.
so who is mostly to blame for the jw religon russell or rutherford?.
or is it ourselves ,did we just decive ourselves and seek to pass the blame when the truth dawned?.
RR:
You stated:
Actually, the name was changed to WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PA in 1884 when it was incorporated. Prior to that it was Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society.
Then, maybe you could also explain why the alleged name change was not mentioned in either of the two Zion's Watch Tower articles below which address the incorporation:
Zion's Watch Tower:
October 1884LEGAL INCORPORATION
ZION'S WATCH TOWER TRACT SOCIETY, though it has already done a great work, and in the hand of God has been a power in publishing the truth, the influence which is being felt already on both sides of the Atlantic, has never yet had legal incorporation. Nor was such incorporation considered necessary by its friends, it having already all the powers necessary for the present work and similar to that of nine-tenths of other small societies.
But a new phase of the question has arisen. It seems tolerably certain that some of the saints will be in the flesh during a great part at least of the "time of trouble," and if so, there will be need of printed matter, tracts, etc., as much then, perhaps, as now, and possibly will be more heeded, for when the judgments of the Lord are "in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isa. 26:9.) Should those at present prominently identified with the work not be the last to be "changed," some interruption of the work might result; but this may be obviated by having a legal standing, granted by a State Charter.
Another matter also has been considered: Two or more who had already contributed to the funds of the society, suggested that as age was coming on and opportunities for earning a living decreasing they could not now give more largely without endangering penury and leaving themselves a burden on their friends, which they could not see to be the Lord's will; yet they are desirous that in some way they might be able to put the Lord's money (consecrated to Him) into His work. This naturally suggested the idea that there might be many others similarly situated and with similar ideas. Such moneys or other property donated by "Will" to the society it might be unable to receive or dispose of, unless it had a charter.
From all these considerations it was deemed best to apply for a charter; and this has been done. We expect that it will be granted without delay, and in that event you will learn more concerning the matter in our next issue.
Zion's Watch Tower:
January 1885ZION'S WATCH TOWER TRACT SOCIETY
A charter of incorporation for Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society was granted December 13th, 1884. In accordance with the same, Certificates have just been sent to each contributor to the Fund, whose donations (all told) amounted to Ten Dollars or more. Each ten dollars representing one voting share.
The certificates are neatly printed and bear the Society's seal upon the face. On the reverse side is a brief statement of the object and past efforts of the Society, the time and mode of electing its officers, etc. The Incorporators are the Directors, named below, from among whom the officers indicated have just been elected for the year 1885:
DIRECTORS:
C. T. RUSSELL, Pres.,
M. F. RUSSELL, Sec. and Treas.,
W. C. McMILLAN,
W. I. MANN, Vice Pres.,
J. B. ADAMSON,
J. F. SMITH.
It was my understanding that the name of ZWTTS was not changed until ~1896 to Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, with "of Pennsylvania" not being added until ~1955/6. But then, you are the WBTS history expert. I honestly would appreciate your correcting my errors. It goes without saying that documentation wold be appropriate.
Thanks!
michael jackson still claims to be a jw.
http://www.freeminds.org/african/african.htm.
randy
My A.D. edition is 1985, so who knows what might have occurred subsequent.
Penton relates that WTS issued a letter to an inquirer acknowledging MJ was baptised, but same letter goes off on his music, lifestyle, etc.
Penton relates that there were press reports which indicated that MJ was "publicly reproved".
Nothing regarding DA or DF!!!
it has been said that the gb are just followers of followers.. they had belived a lie all their lives and have taught others the same.. in another post i've disscussed how i'd like to know more about russell and rutherford.. were they followers of followers or corupt.. many seem to point to rutherford as the bad guy.. even in the societies own books he seems to come off as a dodgy guy.. was russell guenuine in his belief , or was he courupt too?.
so who is mostly to blame for the jw religon russell or rutherford?.
or is it ourselves ,did we just decive ourselves and seek to pass the blame when the truth dawned?.
RR:
Just a reminder. I saw where you posted on another thread earlier today, so you must have forgotten to post those "Russell at the Pyramids" photos, which Bible Students are NOT trying to hide.
Anxiously awaiting such!
Thanks.
it has been said that the gb are just followers of followers.. they had belived a lie all their lives and have taught others the same.. in another post i've disscussed how i'd like to know more about russell and rutherford.. were they followers of followers or corupt.. many seem to point to rutherford as the bad guy.. even in the societies own books he seems to come off as a dodgy guy.. was russell guenuine in his belief , or was he courupt too?.
so who is mostly to blame for the jw religon russell or rutherford?.
or is it ourselves ,did we just decive ourselves and seek to pass the blame when the truth dawned?.
TJ:
Your statement seems to imply that I do not acknowledge the many changes made by JFR:
I agree with your assessment of Rutherford. Although Mad Apostate made some valid points, from what I was able to discover in my research is that the movement Russell started was radically altered with the ascendancy of the Judge -- it just was NOT the same organization following Russell's death. One can lay the blame on Russell, but I don't think that truthfully answers your original question.
What 120 year old American Corporation is identical to what it was the day that the corporate founder died? Saying that Russell is not the "father" of the current WTS or JWs makes as much sense as saying that Henry Ford and Thomas Edison were not the "fathers" of Ford and GE.While Rutherford acknowledg(ed)ly made significant changes, they were all based on the "culture" established by Russell. That is, "we are right, and everyone else is wrong", and "we are God's chosen organization". These basic premises allowed Rutherford, Knorr, Franz, etc to progressively commit a multitude of sins which noone was allowed to question, ie, "It's our way or the highway" mentality.
Having done some careful research in this area. I think it is safe to say that the JW's today are the children of one man, Judge Rutherford. Everything the Watchtower is, is due to his practices and theology.
Now, if you want to carve out a position on the accuracy of RR's assertion, be my guest.
DanB:
Thanks for providing this info. However, as you can see, it's not getting the attention it deserves, probably due to not enough info in your initial post. Folks who checked it out aren't coming back.
HOWEVER, any who come back and read this should take the time to read pages 345-9 of "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years", since this is just one more example how the Writing Dept misleads/deceives JW readers, whom they know never verify anything they write, by using carefully selected verbiage.
Pointing out that "FM" was publshed by "PPA", while all "positive" comments refer to "WBTS", serves only to mislead ignorant JWs to assume that "PPA" was somehow controlled in 1917 by those BS who later split off, and of course, are already labeled as "the evil slave class".
Such deception is outrageous, since the truth of the matter is that Rutherford had "FM" secretly written and printed outside of Bethel, without the knowledge of the 4 Directors who he threw off the Board the very same day he released "FM" to Bethel.
There's no doubt that the verbiage on these pages was deliberately selected to deceive and mislead JW readers.
PS: Just FYI for readers- PPA was the original corporate name of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., established in 1909, when the Borg moved from Pittsburgh to Brooklyn.
Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society was the original corporate name of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., established in Pittsburgh in 1884. (unincorporated since 1881)
