Posts by MadApostate

6

Another Ohio City Moves To Regulate Solicitors/JWs

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

marion law lets residents keep solicitors off doorsteps.

thursday, october 25, 2001. mary beth lane.

dispatch staff reporter.

MadApostate

A number of news articles have been written about the Stratton Case, and most have been posted in one thread or another.

However, this article does one of the better jobs of outlining the legal issues which face the USSC:

----------------------------------------

Tuesday, October 16, 2001

Court to rule on key church, state issue

U.S. Supreme Court to consider preaching door to door without permit

The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court agreed Monday to confront a particularly tough separation of church and state issue by deciding whether a town can require permits from Jehovah's Witnesses or others who want to solicit door-to-door.
Jehovah's Witnesses routinely go door-to-door to distribute literature and recruit believers. A village ordinance in Stratton, Ohio, requires members of the faith -- and others, from door-to-door salesmen to politicians rounding up votes -- to get the mayor's permission before soliciting and to display the permit for homeowners who ask to see it.

Jehovah's Witnesses sued the village in a church-state case with broad free-speech implications, and the justices agreed Monday to hear their appeal of a lower court's decision for Stratton.

"Permission to preach comes from God and not man," said Paul Polidoro, attorney for Jehovah's Witnesses, who have not solicited door-to-door in Stratton during the three years the permits have been required.

Village leaders said permits are free and nobody has ever been denied one. The ordinance is reasonable in "weighing the First Amendment rights of canvassers against the right of homeowners to security, privacy and peacefulness in their homes," they told the Supreme Court.

The Constitution's First Amendment guarantees both free speech and the free exercise of religion. An appellate court ruled the ordinance does not discriminate against Witnesses because it demands the same permit of everybody.

The Supreme Court probably will hear the case early next year, with a ruling expected by summer. The justices restricted the issue to the First Amendment ramifications of requiring approval for all door-to-door advocacy, including political pamphleteering.

Stratton requires people planning solicitations to divulge to the mayor names, addresses for the past five years and names and addresses of their affiliations. A homeowner can demand to see the permit, and violators can be charged with misdemeanors.

Lawyers for the Jehovah's Witnesses said if church members were to complete permit requests, they would lose the right of citizens to practice their religion anonymously.

The court handled a related issue in 1995. Justices ruled that Ohio could not fine a woman for distributing unsigned leaflets opposing a proposed local school tax.

"Under our Constitution, anonymous pamphleteering is not a pernicious, fraudulent practice, but an honorable tradition of advocacy and dissent," Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the 7-2 court.

The Supreme Court handled door-to-door solicitation cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses in the 1930s and 1940s.

This case is broader, applying to all solicitors including candidates for office.

"This is a tricky one," said Gregory Magarian, who teaches constitutional law at Villanova University. "The x factor is how far is the court going to go in saying it's OK for the city to protect privacy in the home this way."

Church lawyers said similar permit requirements have popped up in other jurisdictions over the years. Neither the church nor First Amendment scholars keep track of how many localities have such requirements.

U.S. District Judge Edmund Sargus Jr. ruled in 1999 that Stratton could not limit activity from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., as it initially tried to do. He ordered that stipulation to be changed to reasonable hours but upheld the permitting process.

The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled this year that the ordinance does not discriminate because it put the same requirements on all people, regardless of their message or purpose.

Stratton should not be stopped from "protecting its residents from fraud and undue annoyance in their homes," the court said.

Any of the fewer than 300 residents of Stratton can notify the village that they do not want to be solicited.

The case is Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York Inc. v. Village of Stratton, Ohio, et al., 00-1737.

8

XJW Nancy Denison's Story In Recent Newspaper

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

'i have never saluted the flag, and i am 63 years old'.

a former jehovah's witness has lingering effects from a faith that does not allow followers to pledge allegiance to a country, vote or serve in the military.

by waveney ann moore.

MadApostate

'I have never saluted the flag, and I am 63 years old'

A former Jehovah's Witness has lingering effects from a faith that does not allow followers to pledge allegiance to a country, vote or serve in the military.

By WAVENEY ANN MOORE
© St. Petersburg Times, published September 29, 2001

A former Jehovah's Witness has lingering effects from a faith that does not allow followers to pledge allegiance to a country, vote or serve in the military.

ST. PETERSBURG -- The recent wave of patriotism that has swept the United States, making a stirring show from workplace to religious gathering, has resurrected unhappy memories for Nancy Denison.

A former Jehovah's Witness, Mrs. Denison said she froze when her Church of Christ congregation recited the Pledge of Allegiance the first Sunday after terrorists struck the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not say the Pledge of Allegiance or salute the flag, an omission that often made her the object of abuse by non-believers, Mrs. Denison said.

"I've been beaten and knocked unconscious because I wouldn't salute the flag at school," she said.

"And I had a water hose from a fire truck turned on me while my mother stood next to me. We were standing on the street corner and the fire truck ordered us off the street," she said of the incident that took place during the patriotic fervor of World War II.

At the time, she and her mother were distributing copies of Watchtower, the signature magazine of the Jehovah's Witness faith.

"With the flag issue, my mother said it's better to die for what you believe, but don't ever salute the flag. I have never saluted the flag, and I am 63 years old," Mrs. Denison said.

"It is brainwashing. It is a total control, and when you are raised in it, it's totally encompassing," she said of her former faith's teachings.

Founded in Pennsylvania toward the end of the 19th century by Charles Taze Russell, Jehovah's Witnesses believe the world is in its last days. They do not pledge allegiance to any country or serve in the military. Witnesses, as believers call themselves, are unlikely, therefore, to be among those who will take part in America's new war.

"What we prefer to do is to do some kind of public service in a civilian program that will build up people's lives, that will add to the common good rather than share in the destruction that would be unleashed in warfare," Clayton Barrows, presiding overseer of the East Clearwater congregation, said this week.

"We are not opposed to rendering public service on behalf of the common good, satisfying the duties of citizenship in that way. We prefer something that's positive, that's going to give life to people."

He mentioned, for instance, relief efforts at the group's Brooklyn headquarters on Sept. 11 and the weeks since.

Frightened people fleeing Manhattan the day of the terrorist attacks sought sanctuary at the landmark Watchtower complex, said J.R. Brown, director of the Jehovah's Witnesses' public information office in the group's headquarters building, which sits at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge. They were allowed to use restrooms and were fed.

Most important, though, Jehovah's Witnesses have continued to provide help to workers at ground zero, he said.
"We have assigned ministers of our group, and they have been permitted to be right in the work area to talk and provide comfort and spiritual aid and assistance. We have a number who are there every day," he said.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Brown said, are "very good citizens" but do not compromise their beliefs.

During World War II, more than 2,000 Jehovah's Witnesses died -- 350 were executed -- at the hands of the Nazis because they refused to renounce their beliefs and pledge allegiance to the Nazi state.

Jehovah's Witnesses respect the American flag, said Barrows, the overseer of the East Clearwater congregation.

"It is a symbol of the country in which we live," he said and added that Jehovah's Witnesses object to saluting the flag on religious, not political, grounds.

"It's based on, among other things, our desire to obey the second of the Ten Commandments. . . . You must not make for yourself a carved image. . . . You must not bow down to them. Our devotion belongs to Jehovah God, our creator."
Jehovah's Witnesses also would not normally wear clothing displaying the American flag, Barrows said. If required as part of a uniform, they will do so, he said.

"We draw the line when it comes to what we swear our devotion to," he added.
Brown, the group's public relations director, explained further: "Our view of the flag is that, for the most part, it is treated by nations as a sacred symbol; and it's really treated with a religious reverence. And that is why Jehovah's Witnesses decline to participate in ceremonies such as saluting the flag, viewing such action as an act of worship."

In any event, he said, "This conscientious stand is not intended to show disrespect for the flag of any nation. . . . Our real devotion and citizenship belong to the kingdom of God."

This position created problems for Jehovah's Witnesses during the 1930s and 1940s, when many children were expelled from school for refusing to salute the flag. The group pursued its case to the Supreme Court and won.

During this period, according to Jehovah's Witness records, believers were routinely harassed. Mrs. Denison, who grew up in upstate New York, counts herself among those victims.

Now a member of Church of Christ Northside, 6329 Dr. M.L. King (Ninth) St. N, Mrs. Denison said she grew up in a strict Jehovah's Witness home and accompanied her parents on door-to-door
evangelization missions.

"When I see a child on the street or one comes to my door with a parent, I always give them a hug," she said.

"And I ask the parents to please allow their children to grow up with the choice to investigate on their own and not be told that this is the only way and that you have to die for a religious idea," said Mrs. Denison, whose own adult children have all left the faith.

The grandmother of 10 and great-grandmother of three said her relationship with Jehovah's Witnesses ended in 1981, when she was "disfellowshipped" for leaving her first husband and marrying Jim Denison, her current husband.

She said she has had to seek therapy to rid herself of the group's teachings, which instructed, among other things, that she could not enter other churches, even for a relative's wedding or funeral, or leave an abusive marriage.

"Every time there has been a major breakthrough, it has been very, very traumatic," she said.

"The last straw was the flag salute. I went to church a week ago Sunday. That's when everybody had a flag in their church. I knew there would be the Pledge of Allegiance. I stood respectfully, but I could not say it. The words "I pledge allegiance to the flag' bothered me. I could still hear my mother's voice. The training was so dense, I couldn't say it."

She was so troubled that she sought the help of her brother-in-law, a Church of Christ minister, and a church elder. Mrs. Denison said they managed to convince her that saying the Pledge of Allegiance did not mean she was worshiping the flag.

"A light bulb went on," she said.

"I'm free."

9

Putting the WTS's UN Affiliation In Perspective!!!

by MadApostate in

after following jalward's and other's posts over the past week or so regarding how the borganization views the wts's previous un affiliation, i thought it would meaningful to consider how joe average elder in mayberry, usa perceives the congregation's responsibility to not only to keep entirely free of governmental connections, but even how far a local boe would go to avoid even an appearance of such.. thus, i pose the following hypothetical, and invite readers to give their opinion as to how they think mayberry's boe would react to receiving this letter from their local mayor:.

december 1, 2001 .

kingdom hall of jehovah's witnesses 7524 e. garthy road .

MadApostate

As most every determined, this was an actual situation, and yes, the local Cong not only was a no-show at the meeting, but they didn't even have the courtesy to rsvp.

The Mayor eventually mailed the Cert to the KH address, but still never even got a courtesy reply.

26

Greed Blinds JW Elder To Planned Suicide

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

investigation continues into deaths of man, woman found in waco motel.

by paul monies .

tribune-herald staff writer.

MadApostate

Paul:

Thanks for the firsthand knowledge about the Elder. Sounds lke you live in the area. Were there any followup articles or TV coverage?

6

Another Ohio City Moves To Regulate Solicitors/JWs

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

marion law lets residents keep solicitors off doorsteps.

thursday, october 25, 2001. mary beth lane.

dispatch staff reporter.

MadApostate

From what I've been able to gather, Marion's law differs from Stratton's only in the exceptions to political and the under-16ers (for schools/clubs).

Even Stratton has the Prohibited-Call List.

The Stratton Case decision will be very interesting. I believe there is a good chance that the anthrax scare, new terrorism prevention measures, etc. all combine to create a mentality that citizens have the right to ask their local governments to establish reasonable procedures to identify and keep record of people who are soliciting entire communities in organized fashions. The Stratton and Marion procedures do not prevent JWs, or anyone else from going door-to-door to freely express themselves religiously or otherwise. The local ordinances merely say that such activities cannot be performed anonymously, which in my opinion is reasonable. Why should JWs, or others, have the right to intrude into the private sanctuary (home) of individual citizens, identify the occupants, and at the same time have the right to do so without reciprocating?

Calling at private homes is distinguishable from someone preaching in a public park or on the public sidewalk where the audience has the ability to maintain an equal degree of anonymity.

I give a slight edge to Stratton to win this case, with possibly the court restricting how much personal info can be required up front durng the permitting process.

One things for sure IMO. The decision will not be unanimous. The USSC will split on this one, and the opinions should make for good constitutional law study.

15

Ankerburg Finally Comes Thru On UN-NGO Publicity!

by MadApostate in

jehovah's witnesses and their strange bedfellows.

by lorri macgregor.

the watchtower organization of jehovah's witnesses has done some strange "bedfellow" partnering in the past.

MadApostate

BTTT for significance of main post, not the.....

3

Prince Album Reviewed: JW Influence Noted

by MadApostate in

prince of piety.

prince, the rainbow children (npg records): for a long time in the '90s, it was possible to listen to prince without paying much attention to what he was actually saying.

the basic rhythm tracks were so crisp, the guitar playing so pinpoint-specific, the vocals so evocative (one minute, he'd be a '50s jazz diva; the next, some block-rocking hip-hop head) that the meanings of his dervishlike meditations on holy lust and other utopias were secondary.. that's not so easy to do this time.

MadApostate

Prince of piety

Prince, The Rainbow Children (NPG Records): For a long time in the '90s, it was possible to listen to Prince without paying much attention to what he was actually saying. The basic rhythm tracks were so crisp, the guitar playing so pinpoint-specific, the vocals so evocative (one minute, he'd be a '50s jazz diva; the next, some block-rocking hip-hop head) that the meanings of his dervishlike meditations on Holy Lust and other utopias were secondary.

That's not so easy to do this time. Having recently embraced the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the author of "Gett Off" and "Kiss" delivers an overblown rock-funk opera about the coming apocalypse and the need to get right with the Creator.

The adventure begins with Prince's lugubrious, slowed-down voice (heard to annoying effect throughout) introducing a jazz-inflected sermon. Despite several inspired moments, Rainbow Children sets the tone: Even the suite's simple, plaintive refrain is interrupted by proselytizing interludes as Prince's usually keen musical instincts get sidetracked by his mission to spread the Word.

Still, buried within this erratic effort are maddening glimmers of the old, secular Prince, moments when a groove takes hold long enough to remind us of his mastery. "The Work, Pt. 1" is an old-school revival-meeting stomp that starts with a heated proclamation of devotion and gets hotter. "Mellow" is laced with characteristically bold, multitracked vocal harmonies. "The Everlasting Now" takes rubbery, horn-fueled funk through all kinds of hairpin turns, and the ballad "Last December" transforms thoughtful, Stevie Wonder-style chords into a rousing (if overly religious) call for unity.

Tom Moon
Philadelphia Inquirer

2

WTS's "No Comment" Re DF Of Mwanawasa...

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

churches demand more details from tungwa family.

by muziya mutungwa.

some christian organisations have urged former archie mactribuoy's wife tungwa chanda to avail them with more information about her situation to enable them make a meaningful intervention.. and vera chiluba has also been urged to speak out to enable the public weigh the situation.. this comes after tungwa chanda's father retired colonel gerry chanda lashed out at the church, women non-governmental organisations (ngos) and some politicians for remaining silent over his daughter's broken marriage and also for making political mileage over the same.. national women's lobby group (nwlg) last week called for a diplomatic approach to the matter as opposed to the use of the press.. nwlg chairperson chipo lungu, had said accusations would not help resolve the matter.. when contacted for a comment yesterday, the lobby's information officer juliet chibuta, said they still maintained the same stand.. evangelical fellowship of zambia (efz) director reverend paul mususu, said it was difficult to defend tungwa because her position was only read in the papers.. rev.

MadApostate

Churches demand more details from Tungwa family

By MUZIYA MUTUNGWA

SOME Christian organisations have urged former Archie Mactribuoy's wife Tungwa Chanda to avail them with more information about her situation to enable them make a meaningful intervention.
And Vera Chiluba has also been urged to speak out to enable the public weigh the situation.

This comes after Tungwa Chanda's father retired Colonel Gerry Chanda lashed out at the Church, women Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and some politicians for remaining silent over his daughter's broken marriage and also for making political mileage over the same.

National Women's Lobby Group (NWLG) last week called for a diplomatic approach to the matter as opposed to the use of the press.

NWLG chairperson Chipo Lungu, had said accusations would not help resolve the matter.

When contacted for a comment yesterday, the Lobby's information officer Juliet Chibuta, said they still maintained the same stand.

Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia (EFZ) director Reverend Paul Mususu, said it was difficult to defend Tungwa because her position was only read in the papers.
Rev. Mususu said the Church did not have information about her marital problems, making it difficult for them to react.
He added that Vera's view on the matter had not been heard, making the story to be "one-sided''.

Independent Churches Of Zambia (ICOZ) chairman Reverend David Masupa, said there was need to hear the true story from both parties.

Rev. Masupa added that a comprehensive investigation by the Church should be taken to avoid any speculations.

Rev Masupa noted that as much as the Church would like to sympathise with the affected person, their main role would be that of reconciling the two.

And GEORGE CHOMBA reports that two Church mother bodies say there was nothing strange about the decision of the Jehovah's Witness to ex-communicate Mr Levy Mwanawasa and wife, Maureen.

The Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia (EFZ) and the ICOZ said yesterday that the Jehovah's Witnesses had a right to act according to their principles.

EFZ executive director Reverend Paul Mususu, said although he would not like to entangle himself in the Mwanawasa and the Jehovah's Witness affair, the two parties had the right to decide what they wanted.

"While the Church has the right to act in accordance with the principles of the faith, the Mwanawasas have the right to decide what they wanted in life," Rev. Mususu said.

And the ICOZ concurred with Rev. Mususu, saying any Church had guidelines to follow.

ICOZ chairman Reverend David Masupa however, said the Mwanawasa family should find a Church so that they could be under the shelter of God.

He cautioned against making a rush decision over the Church they intended to join.

Rev. Masupa who two weeks ago together with hundreds of his affiliate members backed Mr Mwanawasa's candidature for Republican President, said his grouping would continue praying for the State Counsel.

On the Radio Phoenix talk show, Scramble for Plot One, Mr Mwanawasa disclosed that his wife Maureen, had been excommunicated for supporting his Presidential ambitious.

When contacted for a comment about the excommunication of the Mwanawasas, The Jehovah's Witness declined to confirm their action.

Spokesman Dick Nkandu, said it would be unethical for the faith to comment on the private matters of Mr and Mrs Mwanawasa.

"A person's affiliation and disassociation to a chosen faith is strictly a personal matter. We regret that we cannot comment on private matters of Mr Mwanawasa and his wife," Mr Nkandu said.

5

Elder Lies To Newspaper Reporter

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

tab to bottom of article to read "theocratic warfare" lies from elder>>>.

some churchgoers won't be going to see graham .

by barbara anderson.

MadApostate

Tab to bottom of article to read "theocratic warfare" lies from Elder>>>

---------------------------------------

Some churchgoers won't be going to see Graham

By Barbara Anderson
The Fresno Bee

(Published Friday, October, 12, 2001 10:16AM)

While thousands lined up to hear evangelist Billy Graham preach Thursday, thousands of Valley churchgoers chose not to participate in the minister's crusade.

No offense to the Rev. Graham. Their reason for staying away: His message simply doesn't fit with their faith journey.

"Billy Graham and that crusade have a particular place in the ecology of religion," says Bryan Jessup, reverend of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Fresno. "They do a lot of good for some people."

But Graham's focus or interpretation of Christianity differs from Unitarian Universalist thought, Jessup says. Unitarian Universalists draw from the world's religions and view Jesus as an inspired human. They embrace his message of loving the Lord and loving your neighbor as yourself.

"We would think the thing that is most important about Jesus is not his death and not the story of the resurrection, but we would say in our understanding, the most important thing about Jesus was his message," Jessup says.
Pastors from churches who aren't promoting the crusade are in the minority -- approximately 500 Valley churches representing 54 denominations are involved. Those that aren't say they have no problem with congregants hearing what Graham has to say in Fresno. The evangelist has their respect.

"I think Billy Graham is a man of God, and Billy Graham does wonderful work. Any path that someone takes to developing their spiritual relationship to God can change their life," says Janette Marie Freeman, a senior pastor and founding member of Church for Today, a New Thought church.

But she won't be listening to Graham's proselytizing, nor will she advise members of her church to hear him.

"We do not teach at our church that there is only one way to heaven and that Christ is the only way to salvation," she says.
Although New Thought churches are Judeo-Christian based, they teach there are many paths that lead to God, Freeman says. That is in contrast to Graham's message, which is that Jesus Christ is the only avenue to salvation.

The Rev. Larry Patten isn't tempted to walk the few blocks from Wesley United Methodist Church on Barstow Avenue to listen to Graham's sermon at the stadium.
"No, gosh, no," he says.

Patten's church advertises itself as "a lively, liberal, justice-seeking church." Graham's religious philosophy, he says, is much more conservative.

However, that doesn't mean he doesn't admire Graham. He just doesn't agree with everything he preaches.

"I respect the journey he has taken," Patten says. "But we would have a lot of disagreements."

Being able to voice different opinions is "part of the excitement, the absolute excitement, of the Christian faith," he says.

Patten says Graham represents an important part of Christian expression. And what he says and what he does is a by-product of someone who is deeply touched by his faith. In that same vein, Patten says: "I hope I am perceived as I am also reacting to my Christian faith."

The 3,000 to 4,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in the Valley are encouraged to attend regular meetings at kingdom halls today and this weekend in lieu of the crusade.

"We do not join in inter-faith movements or ecumenical movements," says Robert Parsons, an elder at the Jehovah's Witness Millbrook Congregation.

But that doesn't mean Jehovah's Witnesses oppose the crusade or those who participate. "We have the freedom to express our religion, and we don't deny that to anyone else," Parsons says.

He says the crusade could benefit people who attend, if it results in someone wanting to pursue a study of the Bible.

Says Parsons: "We're Bible students. If this means people are going to take up an interest in God's word and follow through with it, that's a good thing."

The reporter can be reached at [email protected] or 441-6310.

150

Raymond Franz and UN

by kpax in

can anyone ask raymond franz what he knows about the un involvement?.

.

kpax

MadApostate

Andi:

Sort and simple:

RF was privy to info which no xjw here can discover through any amount of research.

Either he provides that info, or it dies with him.

If you don't care, Fine!

I do.