Posts by andrekish

82

Quality Thinking - Warning: Long Post Ahead

by Viviane in

recently, several threads have had some debate about logic, evidence, critical thinking and skepticism.

i wanted to write a post discussing those things, hopefully to clarify what those things are, why they are important and how to use those tools.

first, logic, at its core, is simply a method for how to reason validly, how to draw conclusions based on a premise.

andrekish

A very small side question.

I wonder how many rational, logical folk would refuse to use a OuiJa board?

82

Quality Thinking - Warning: Long Post Ahead

by Viviane in

recently, several threads have had some debate about logic, evidence, critical thinking and skepticism.

i wanted to write a post discussing those things, hopefully to clarify what those things are, why they are important and how to use those tools.

first, logic, at its core, is simply a method for how to reason validly, how to draw conclusions based on a premise.

Hello Vivanne. Many thanks, truly, for responding.

In an earlier post at this topic I used the concept of 'seeing' a ghost as this is generally an entirely subjective thing to experience and is virtually impossible to prove or to accurately analyse. It relies to a great deal on confirmation bias and looking at the cold data through emotive and often wishful eyes. There obviously are, methodically or logically, many possibilities for 'seeing' them,.

Whenever I have seen images in my head as described they have always been accompanied by the 'sensation'/'mental cenrtainty that the events would occur. On each and every occassion that this has happened the image I have seen has always and invariably occurred, without any failure to do so, as opposed to a body of images, some of which didn't occur.

My parents came to the UK from a village in Hungary called Csepa and my mother was of Roma descent. In the UK Roma of often associated with foretune telling, etc, and also being charatans, who many are. I could, if I chose, attribute the concept of 'foresight' due to Roma lineage and this would be total confirmation bias. However, what happends to me is because it happens and as an incidental thing, my mother was Roma and this is probably completely co-incidental and simply a local cultural romantic gypsy concept.

One example of the specifics of what happens to me personally was in February 1989 whilst sitting in a pub with friends. I felt like my stomach was be compressed and saw an image of a man on top of a wall hitting it at the wall at his feet with a large sledge hammer. I had the exact immpression that this was the Berlin Wall and I stated to my friends that the Berlin Wall would be coming down that year. My friends said I was crazy and laughed at me.

In March 1989 the first of the troubles with the countries of the Soviet Union began. By November 1989 the Berlin Wall came down. Then on the news I saw a man with a sledge hammer standing on top of the now redundant Berlin Wall hitting the walll he stood on.

A more recent and potentially problematic example of this was whilst attending an engagement party for my brother in law, six years ago. When I saw his fiancee I had the same stomach sensations and saw an image of her holding a baby. I told her, my brother-in-law, and the entire immediate family who told me to shut up because she was infertile, as all her consultants had agreed. Thus problems can arise when something like this happens and it is entirely at odds with the expectations of people. Ten months later her daughter was born.

These are just two of many examples of this phenomena that I have personally witnessed among the possibly hundreds. Based on all of these I subjectively would be rather foolish to ignore the possibility that the old guys were seeing what they said. It cannot in anyway prove the old prophecies and is not intended to do so. Many years ago I was excommunicated from the Mormon church once I told them of these events. They said I was possessed, which if they are correct, means that two minds can occupy the same airspace and brain, which is an entirely different thing I had to analyse at the time. I still haven't been able to draw solid conclusions on that one yet.

Rather than this I am enquiring of everyone with a clear thinking mind whether it would be foolish of me, who witnesses these things, to rule out entirely what the old guys. potential prophets if I may use the term, said. Using the term 'old guys' I mean them no disrespect but place them in history.

As a personal opinion I think many of Jehovah's Witnesses, with this full title used so as not to be disrespectful to them, are a bit wide of the mark and are way too dogmatic and domineering in their approach. The concept of disfollowshipping does not rest easy on many shoulders of the folks who post at this site. Nor does the concept of me sacrificing the lives of children to show that I believe in God. They are not, and will never be, a pawn in any game of religious devotion I might choose to follow. Thus, my kids would always be given life saving blood every time the need arose.

One of the reasons that I have asked for your opinion, Vivanne, and any other person who might be kind enough to read and respond to this, is that you are clearly unconvinced by the accounts of visions and prophets, etc, and thus may be able to offer peer review with a critical set of eyes. If anyone can help me analyse these events objectively and offer suggestions not yet considered by me it will be invaluable, so many, many thanks to all.

82

Quality Thinking - Warning: Long Post Ahead

by Viviane in

recently, several threads have had some debate about logic, evidence, critical thinking and skepticism.

i wanted to write a post discussing those things, hopefully to clarify what those things are, why they are important and how to use those tools.

first, logic, at its core, is simply a method for how to reason validly, how to draw conclusions based on a premise.

andrekish

Hello Oubliette.

Thanks for list. To me they will be very, very useful.

Can I refer you to a post I put on a little earlier on this topic by Vivianne and ask you opinion after using your list of skills above.

82

Quality Thinking - Warning: Long Post Ahead

by Viviane in

recently, several threads have had some debate about logic, evidence, critical thinking and skepticism.

i wanted to write a post discussing those things, hopefully to clarify what those things are, why they are important and how to use those tools.

first, logic, at its core, is simply a method for how to reason validly, how to draw conclusions based on a premise.

andrekish

Wow. This post is an intellectual attention grabber. Thank you, Viviane.

Because I like to poke my nose into things, which is a logical thing for a thinking mechanism which doesn't have all of the necessary infomation yet, to do, I hope I may ask a couple of questions and offer a couple of statements.

I have worked with computer systems and networks [rofessionally since the early 1980s. If I may say to LisaRose, your path is very similar to us so-called professionals who have pretty much been doing as you have done, but we got quite well paid so it may not have been just for the sciency stuff we all together, prof and amateur, since many of my colleagues had lovely cars and stuff. Mine went on booze and drugs. They've long since scrapped the cars but at least I've got scars to prove what I got up to at music festivals, etc, still so it wasn't a total waste of time my part, logically and illogically.

I'm not rich now but had fun in this life. So there is logic and illogic, depending on worldview and things like that. But my knowledge of technical electronics digital information systems and coding means I am actually qualified to blow up any electronic component I have a mind to or fiddle with any coded information within a computerised system.

We can do that with DNA these days, another coding type, that when run creates intelligence and thus we can discuss logic and it's analysis, conclusions and belief systems. Thus if I see a ghost or appararition, as part of the analysis of the event I have to include initially the possibilities that I am having a brainstorm and the possibility that ghosts do exist. I must also add, from person experience, the probability that neither of the previous is correct. It is extremely hard to make proper conclusions as we don't have enough hard evidence at the time the ghost appeared.

However, and finally the point of this waffle, what happens when we personally see images in our heads of events which actually occur as per image, at a later time? What kind of critical analysis could we make of that. initially? Nothing concrete in any analytical sense. When it happens repeatedly a body of evidence can be analysed and certain conclussions drawn, by logic, critical thinking, etc.

I keep getting such images in my head. They have happened for years and always been accurate. What do I conclude? The reason I ask, and I hope anyone who has continued thus far will not mind considering, is that the one thing I cannot do for myself is logical peer review, because this seems to happen to very few people but if it can happen to 1 DNA pile, me, it can happen to all DNA piles, all humanity ultimately.

What it has done is to make me look at the prophecies spoken about in the original old texts. The one thing I logically conclude from a personal perspective is that the old guys, way back when they were writing their stuff, could, well have been seeing exactly what they said they were.

So, in conclusion, what would you make of this if it kept happening to you? If you keep having images in your head of events that later happen? I ask because it is a series of genuinely real events that occur on this earth for some reason or other. Somehow, it is possible for humans to see what will later happen. This I know from weight of personal experience, so I would truly love a bit of outside critical thinking by people who by posting on this topic by Vivianne prove they can do it, namely, you, the reader.

2

Mind The Gap.

by andrekish in

this is meant as a joke to cheer some of us up if we are sad-sacks.

this video probably proves it but i haven't watched it so it might not.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rvgjof60gq.

this video probably proves it but i haven't watched it either so it might not either, who knows,.

andrekish

Hello Prologos - utterly correct.

10

Elder Telephoned

by The Searcher in

got a call from an elder in my previous congregation.. as tonight is meeting night, he enquired, "do you have anything on tonight"?.

i was sorely tempted to reply, "yes, a leotard made of spanx"!!!.

he would not have taken it well, so i just said 'no'!.

andrekish

This vid takes me back a bit and it's really funny.

Hope this isn't spamming as I'm unsure what is a fair amount of posting here but what's said here reminds me of when I was Mormon ward clerk and took all of the minutes at the bishopric meetings at a congregation in the UK.. Ethically I am still under my promise to not reveal personal details anywhere, but can justifiably state from direct involvement that some of what was said and agreed behind closed doors was very questionable indeed.

They tried to dig into members' personal lives where it was just not their business to do so. It was horrible to witness from behind the closed doors. Some of it genuinely bordered on the perverse. Since I physically wrote down what was being said I had time to comprehend what was being said. I bear no ill-will to Mormonism what-so-ever, it didn't cause me harm, luckily, unlike has happened to quite a few folks on here with Jehovah's Organization.

To any of you folks getting the butt end of this type of abuse can I recommend Monty Python's stuff about looking on the bright side 'coz Je Suis Brian et so are my wife and kids.
.

2

Mind The Gap.

by andrekish in

this is meant as a joke to cheer some of us up if we are sad-sacks.

this video probably proves it but i haven't watched it so it might not.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rvgjof60gq.

this video probably proves it but i haven't watched it either so it might not either, who knows,.

andrekish

This is meant as a joke to cheer some of us up if we are sad-sacks.

Please don't take it to heart.

I wonder if the following sanity questioning remarks are scientifically and/or in any respect logically sound? Would any real life professors out there reading this be willing to offer any answers?

It is scientifically stated that once there was nothing. This video probably proves it but I haven't watched it so it might not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rvgJOF60gQ

Today we know that there is still a great deal of nothing but with lots of stuff in it. This video probably proves it but I haven't watched it either so it might not either, who knows,. Why should being aware if the facts be in any way relevant to anything?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBZH4dMac-Q

Space is empty, as is the huge void between atoms and electrons. There is far more nothing than there is something. This video probably proves that as well, but I'm I can't be bothered to watch this one either. so it might but I haven't watched it so it might not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a99cQQCjenU

Therefore.....

We are mostly not here.

But I couldn't find a video to prove it on Youtube.,

So I found a picture that proves it instead.

You can prove almost anything these days if you have a mind to and now I can't turn the yellow off

oh bugger.

10

Uh oh ... caching issues

by Simon in

seems to be some caching issues with the latest update i just released - i'm looking into it.. strange - seems like certain pages are 'stuck'..

andrekish

When in doubt give it a clout. That's my sound technical advice honestly based on years of professional experience of computers. But may I cheekily suggest you stop breaking it in the first place?

And please may I borrer yer 'ammer?

2

I knew a man who disfellowshipped his son.

by andrekish in

i knew a man who wouldn't talk to his own son.

i am neither the man nor the son.

the son is a very disillusioned friend.. i have to be careful with how this is said in order not to blame any innocent group by mistake.

andrekish

Thanks for reply.

My friend will never go near them again. He doesn't blame every member obviously, but In his eyes Jehovah is partly responsible as well, because he still believes in God. I can only imagine what would be said behind his back were he to attend any meeting. I've was there to hear the local Mormon congregation go wild with gossip when a lesbian lass in early attendance attempted suicide.

My friend will always carry his father's blame on his shoulders a bit, because the sins of the father reflect upon the sons. And my lesbian friend still carries the wrist scars. Based on the testimonies of horror on this site it appears not to be changing yet.

Those who are Witnesses could be right. I believe in a Creator so I cannot dismiss them. And I do hear the good side of their message, so thank them for that. But how can we trust a group whose leaders seem blind at times? Sometimes blood fills their footprints as they pass. But isn't that true of us all?

It is such a shame that can be said.

44

Why are JW talks & publications never uplifting?

by thedepressedsoul in

i was sitting at the meeting the other night and for the first time it hit, jw talks or magazines are never uplifting!

i rarely, if ever hear a talk or read a magazines and have it give nothing but praise to jehovahs servants or just praise jehovah and jesus throughout it.

they never just a read through the bible or just a bible story explained or told.

andrekish

I keep saying this flippantly but it is true - 'What a Tutting of Christians there are in this world at times.' But they mean us well in their hearts, so that's nice actually.

Is there no-where in the organisation where group discussion is available?

Some of Jehovah's Witnesses, fellow humans, gave me a Bible study a few years ago then got the hump and that was that. Hmmm. Puzzling for a group with so much detailed research into the Bible and such a supposedly vital message in their hands.

I noticed at the meetings I attended, when they were actually talking to me still, that if the subject matter dictated there was boring, I was in trouble. Raised eyebrows from some of the Nans as I shifted in my chair and suppressed the odd giggle. My downfall is my sense of humour, can't help it,I'm afraid. Life is far too short to be a misery guts. But...

It seemed I was on hallowed ground. The hall had taken four days to put together, so there. When I asked what the hurry was they just glared at me. Some of the things they said made me think 'Hang on a minute, what are you on about? What is coming from your mouths is very sad. even though your message is good news if true. Are all you concerned with is Tutting in what you say and read?' Not all meetings were like that but enough to make me concerned.

If God made man to enjoy life then why are you who are Witnesses suppressing your sense of humour? 'Coz looking at some of the old moaners I've met among you, I think God's in for a right old Tutting at when and if we see Him. And looking at all us mad humans on this planet I do think God may have need of a sense of humour if we turn up on His doorstep and start singing at Him just to show how much we love Him. In 67 different languages simultaneously.

Perhaps this is why many meetings are boring - they are dictations rather than discussions or appeals to the bright side. I wonder how many times the words 'chapter' and 'verse' get uttered on a Sunday. Add all that time together, they get repeated over and over. All those 'chapters' and 'verse' are distracting from the story. By the time I'd find a page the story has moved on. They teach the already converted rather than the newcomer. Older folk read more from books than younger kids do. Maybe time for a complete meeting overhaul would help. Replace the books with iPads, maybe. They don't come across as to be looking on the bright side, do they?

Has any meeting ever asked the folks in a meeting to get their tablets out? I'd be curious to see what age group get what out compared to who is in charge. Do remember that among those attending any meeting the vast majority of medication and therefore potentially mind altering substances could well be in the pockets of your oldest and wisest elders.

Maybe the meeting ain't boring for them 'coz they're already medicated, thanks, and thus already away with the fairies? They are simply waiting for you to catch up.

There can be few things in life more boring than watching a drunk or a medicated tutter.

This is possibly the most accurate answer you may get.