Wow Agent Zero, your experience sounds remarkably like mine. Looked into it, went back to believing more than ever, then I realized the thing questions I had never got answered. I just convinced myself they didn't matter or I was being tested by Satan. Went a little deeper and that's when I started researching the psychological aspects of high control groups. Then I had my "moment". I understood why I felt like it was the truth, why things that should have been red flags didn't affect me, why I wasn't being objective. It was and still is quite a rollercoaster.
thinking_1
JoinedPosts by thinking_1
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17
Lawyers Response Resigned and Withdrawn Elder
by Marvin Shilmer inlawyers response resigned and withdrawn elder .
today i uploaded a new article to my blog containing a 14-page incredibly detailed response from a watchtower lawyer to a long-time high-ranking elder who had resigned and withdrawn his association with watchtower.
my article is titled lawyers response resigned and withdrawn elder and is available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/09/lawyers-response-resigned-and-withdrawn.html.
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thinking_1
Okay, did anyone else catch this? Pages 7 & 8 with the court cases of other religious organizations, are basically saying "See! Look here, even if things are handled wrong (arbitrariness) and you are being treated unfairly, even by our own standards, you're still screwed!"
And the part on pg 4 that says one "voluntarily assented to associating with a religious organization subjects himself to the existing rules and procedures of the church and cannot deny their existence" is infuriating.
I'm sure every 12 yo understands when they're standing in an arena filled w/ 10,000 people watching them say "Yes" to two questions, that by their answers they have agreed that if they ever actually look into what they're being taught, and decide they can't believe it, that means they will be cut off from family and lifelong friendswith no real chance to explain their position and all reasons for their decision.
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The Value of a Godless World
by cantleave inthought provoking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a42rhvmnuaa&feature=uploademail.
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thinking_1
A godless world will only be a place where one can live if the "godlike' values are still there.
History has shown us what happens when we misapply "god"( inquisition), when we remove "god" (Communisim) and in both cases, it is NOT a desirable outcome is it?
I can understand what you mean PS, but maybe you feel that way because to you morals and God are inextricable. I think one can have a different reason for holding to the ideas behind "Godlike values" with just as much conviction because they see the value in being good to their fellow man.
I like quotes and here's a good one from ol' crazy hair:
The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action. ~Albert Einstein
Today, people are doubting the myth, the Communist leaders compromise their ligitimacy, so we have to say "I'm not going to hurt this other man, because. . .I wouldn't want him to hurt me." That "Golden Rule" is usually attributed to Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount, but I bet he wasn't the first to think it up ; ) -
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Society tells us to stop asking questions...
by cedars ini was just glancing at the back of the october 15th watchtower and the questions from readers.
the question under discussion is "what should i do when i have a question about something i read in the bible or when i need advice about a personal problem?".
the article goes on to discuss how we should consult the watch tower publications index among the many 'tools' that have been provided by the faithful and discreet slave whenever we have a question that is not directly discussed in the publications.. one statement really caught my eye, because it's the first time i've ever seen the society actually dissuade people from writing in with questions.
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thinking_1
I think one of the main reasons are simply that they are getting stumpers thrown their way! I've read several correspondences where it ends up with them telling the inquirer to "Let the matter rest" or "Wait on Jehovah". I'm sure they're aware of these being posted online and making them look bad, so they don't want their lack of explanations (or poor ones) to be in writing.
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thinking_1
Good comments. I agree with many of your points,
Terry,
I completely agree that people have a right to reality. The more you understand about reality around you the better you are able to function. Some try to say that many people are better off not knowing certain things, that it causes mental or emotional damage. For example, when it was discovered that the world was indeed not flat, did it blow peoples mind? Well probably a little, but no one was worse off. That is just a simple example, but I think the same is true for much more complex situations. The more you understand, the better off you are as a person. The more people like that in the world. . .
I'm starting to get a picture of what my life will be like in the near future with regard to family/friends still in. I think a good position to take is the more relaxed, not trying to force my views on people, but letting them know the door is always open if they want to ask me how I feel and why.
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thinking_1
While I was entertaining the thought of "the Truth" actually all being a lie, I had fantasies of helping others out and not losing everyone I know. But as time goes on, I wonder if there are some people for whom it would be better not to know the real truth.
The first example is Bro. and Sis. Married and baptized for about a 100 years. I know they don't have much time left. I feel like a good chunk of my life has been wasted, I can't imagine being 80+ years old and learning the Truth (real truth). If the initial shock didn't kill them, living that short time left would be horribly depressing.
Second example is someone who has led a real rough life, and it seems like the only thing keeping them in line is being a Witness. Now I'm not talking about your typical "parties a little too much" kind of person. I mean in and out of jail, drug using/selling, gang related violence, amazing they're still alive kind of person. I'm not saying that being a JW is the only thing that could help them, but what if I sparked them leaving, they fell into their old ways, and end up dead a few months later? Now I know everyone makes their own decisions but that would still weigh heavily on my conscience.
Anyone else ever have these kind of thoughts?
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I finally understand why my very intelligent, logical, incredibly well read dad/elder is incapable of the ability to reason on jw teachings he receives on the wi-fi144k/2b link
by oompa inhe can only start with the firm confiction.......no...the positive position that a certain teaching/topic is irrefutable... because it comes directly from god on his wi-fi144k/2b link ....then his and many other hardcore jws very ability to reason may be lost as it is with my dad.
ah (overused jw word) but in order to reason your way to an answer on any topic...you must be able to consider and meditate (overused jw word) various information, other possibilities, alternate positions that may a better answer to or better define the topic.
uh-uhh...he cant do that...because he already has all the answers...not only is there is no need to really reason on the topic, but the very ability is totally removed....even for a man as smart as my dad...he cant even consider an alternate view that may be more correct, because there cant be one more correct than that of wt .
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thinking_1
I feel for ya Oompa. Haven't been dealing with it for years like you but so far I have had a couple conversations like you describe
uh-uhh...he cant do that...b ecause he ALREADY has ALL the answers...not only is there is no need to really reason on the topic, but the very ABILITY is totally removed
know exactly what you mean. It is really heartbreaking to see this in person. That thinking ability just not happening. The only good thing is it really solidifies for me that the WTS controls the thinking of individuals a la CCMC. And think my mentally in wife sees this a little when we have discussions together. But like I said it is heartbreaking.
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First post, so Hey Everyone!
by thinking_1 injust thought i'd introduce myself.
i've been lurking for a few months and want to get in on some of the conversation.. also here's a song that's taken on a new personal meaning for me.
(i was born in to a witness family and have recently woke up to the fact that it is just a group of people following just men.
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thinking_1
Wow everyone, thank you for the warm welcome. I want to thank all of you for your help in my life. When I first started reading *gasp!* others opinions about the WTS and JWs at first some people appeared overly critical or bitter, (completely understandable to me now) and I thought "maybe they're right. Apostates are just bitter/had a bad experience and now try to find fault with any and everything. Or maybe they are 'influenced by Satan' and just out to turn others away." But then there are certain comments I read and really see that these are real people who are sincere. Also many have recommended "Combatting Cult Mind Control". I read it in about a week and everything make perfect sense! It gave a name to things that I knew were a factor in why seemingly everyone around me didn't see anything wrong with the Organization, but I just couldn't put my finger on it.
Chris,
My wife knows but she still thinks that It's The Truth™ The rest of my family knows there is "something wrong wonderful going on".
Again many thanks, I hope to get to know many of you better.
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Critical Intelligence - Best tool for resolving problems
by mankkeli inwe can discover no purpose or providence for the human species.
no deity will save us; we must save ourselves.
promises of immortal salvation or fear of eternal damnation are both illusory and harmful.
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thinking_1
Well said. Funny how many people (especially in the Truth™) think the thought of there being nothing more to than what you stated is so frightening.
makes me think of a good quote:
"I was dead for millions of years before I
was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit."
-- Mark Twain