just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
I believe the Bible exists, sure.
You know that's not what I mean.
And the thought "experiments" aren't.
They are.
See page 1. Already done. I didn't reference a joke. I have no idea what you are referring to with "joke" in quotes like that.
You are the one going around saying "this is a joke."
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
It's people making claims of fact
OK, well then let's discuss it as an abstract subject. That was my intention anyway. If it's all a "joke" to you what's the point?
By the way, that Bible thingy you keep thumping here are some verses that could be used in support:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+1%3A17&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%201:8&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2033:27&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%203:13-14&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%203:8&version=NIV
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
It is true. So.... it means that the whole idea of God existing outside of time is a joke.
So I take it that you are a Bible believer? The reason I am doing so is because you are using it as a final authority.
This isn't philosophy. It's people making claims of fact and then retreating to science fiction in a desperate bid when basic logic and reasoning proves their claims impossible and wrong at every turn.
This is a philosophical discussion, EP. God is a prominent philosophical subject (Aristotle, Descartes, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche and many many others) . There are plenty of books on the subject you can read. This thread is about an apparent paradox between omniscience and free will, which itself has been a philosophical subject for centuries.
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
It's not valid because there is nothing to back it up, no observation that leads you to it, no idea on how time travel might work, etc. It's not an experiment with conclusions, it's a "pick your favorite version of sci-fi and go".
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
There is nothing is the Bible that says God IS outside of time.
Even if that is true....so?
this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.
Is it fair to observe though that atheism is a negative or passive description? I have practically nothing in common with lots of atheists.
People of faith do share a common thread of thinking that their opinions on big issues are reflections of a god. That's a big difference.
You address trappings, Cofty. What is bare atheism with no trappings? You say it is a vacuous description. The same is true of its opposite.
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
It's still a valid thought experiment, in my view. There are plenty of thought experiments along these lines.
this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.
Which shows why the word atheist is such a vacuous one.
You tell me you are an atheist - the tells me very little about you.
Cofty, the same applies in the other direction, I think.
Take this statement as an example of vacuous thinking:
Religion somehow thinks that if it is not given political power, it is being suppressed.
Now how does that sound to a believer like myself?
Replace "religion" with "atheism," and tell me how it sounds to you.
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
God as a being outside of time can witness all of our free choices simultaneously, from the beginning to the end of time. It isn't foreknowledge or prediction, it's seeing the entire picture at once. "Future" is relative to us.
But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday. He has not. He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way-because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.
http://lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt
just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.
my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.
if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.
*sigh*.... Time travel again? Really? Depending on which sci fi show you are watching, it's yes, no, either or neither. Fiction is a poor substitute for a true thought experiement.
Maybe we should travel back in time and let Einstein know. His gedankenexperiments were all fictional situations. Throw in Schrodinger and his fictional cat. That's what a thought experiment is.
