Posts by botchtowersociety

50

Einstein and Religion - with considerations of "Human Free Will"

by james_woods in

ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.

the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.

first - einstein was, of course, jewish.

botchtowersociety

I am currently reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Life-Universe-Walter-Isaacson/dp/1442348062

50

Einstein and Religion - with considerations of "Human Free Will"

by james_woods in

ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.

the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.

first - einstein was, of course, jewish.

botchtowersociety

Great OP, James. And Einstein's deterministic views made him not too happy over quantum indeterminacy.

159

Believers, do you believe in evolution?

by everchangingworld in

after leaving, i still couldn't wrap my head around evolution (after the years of seing "intelligent design" in everything around me).. there's a series of videos that give a good intro to evolution and critical thinking.

they've probably been posted here before, but, for any new members, these are worth watching.. evolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdddbyilel0.

critical thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.

botchtowersociety

After leaving, I still couldn't wrap my head around evolution (after the years of seing "intelligent design" in everything around me).

I never believed in the JW ideas of the age of the universe, even when I was a JW kid after a certain age. The first thing that made me begin to truly doubt them was their denial of evolution.

94

Just Because Someone Is A JW "Apologist", It Doesn't Mean WE Have To Be Condescending & Nasty

by minimus in

jw
friends

i know certain apologists might rub us the wrong way, but let's not treat them like their pieces of sh*t.. and i know certain posters might rub us the wrong way, but let's not be so quick to beat everybody down that's not of our same reasoning.. just saying..

botchtowersociety

I know certain apologists might rub us the wrong way, but let's not treat them like their pieces of sh*t.

97

Pat Condell on Aggressive Atheism

by cantleave in

this is pretty much how i feel.......who disagrees with this?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yjo4duhmrzk&noredirect=1.

botchtowersociety

I LOVE FICTIONAL ALTERNATIVE HISTORIES.

81

Do you know why God cannot KNOW?

by Terry in

logic prohibits self-reference.

it is a convention like not multiplying by zero.

live with it!.

botchtowersociety

It's not a problem, it's an exciting mystery to solve!

In other words, a problem.

317

Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

by Christ Alone in

just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.

my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.

if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.

botchtowersociety

Knowledge doesn't necessarily mean cause, no one has ever been arguing that.

It is implied in your statement:

If God knowing the future means it cannot be changed, then you have no choice, you MUST choose what God has forseen.

God's knowing the future forces no choice.

It's GOD knowing that we are discussing.

And how does that change anything regarding my former statement?

81

Do you know why God cannot KNOW?

by Terry in

logic prohibits self-reference.

it is a convention like not multiplying by zero.

live with it!.

botchtowersociety

Nothing in the Bible says God created time, just the heavens and earth. If God created time, when did he find the time to do it? Nothing could have been done without some passage of time. There would be no past, present or future. Nothing.

That's also a problem for a Universe that came into being without God. Current cosmological theories about the beginning of the Universe have time starting as part of everything else.

317

Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

by Christ Alone in

just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.

my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.

if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.

botchtowersociety

Not really, because the very act of time travel may be what sets the future in an un-alterable state, or cause the event to happen in the first place. You are unable to separate the experiment from the result. There is no way to verify or falsify the validity of the thought experiment. And there is no conclusion that can be mathemathically or logically reached, it's just "whatever I want the answer to be". There is no "experiment" aspect to it at all.

That's much better than what you stated earlier, because it is actually an argument. For your objection to work, however, you'd have to assume that the time travel could cause the observed event to occur. For the purpose of my thought experiment, I am assuming it does not.

It's not a tactic. The "God knows everything" crowd is attempting to use it to prove their point. It's fair game to use it to show what they claim about God is not actually what the Bible says. It's source material.

You directed the comment at me, and I had not attempted to use it in any way.

Either way, to get back on the topic, as several have stated earlier, knowledge does not necessarily mean cause.

Anyway, here is a pretty exhaustive coverage of the different arguments (for a web page):

http://www.iep.utm.edu/god-time/

317

Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

by Christ Alone in

just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen.

my knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.. it's the same with god.

if god is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by god because god indwells the future as well as the present and the past.

botchtowersociety

Sorry, nope. There is no experiment aspect to it. No logical or mathematical results.

According to wikipedia, this is the definition of a thought experiment:

A thought experiment or Gedankenexperiment (from German ) considers some hypothesis , theory , [1] or principle for the purpose of thinking through its consequences. Given the structure of the experiment, it may or may not be possible to actually perform it, and, in the case that it is possible for it to be performed, there need be no intention of any kind to actually perform the experiment in question. The common goal of a thought experiment is to explore the potential consequences of the principle in question.

The theory of some in our case on this thread, is that foreknowledge nullifies free will. The thought experiment I proposed calls the principle into question.

The thought experiement is this:

If you could travel to the future, and witness events produced by free choices, and then travel back, would that render those choices not free?

That's every bit as valid a thought experiment as the ones I listed earlier.

Indeed I do. Why does it matter whether I believe in the Bible or not?

You are quoting it as an authority on the subject, and alleging that an absence of the mention timelessness renders the argument a joke. That tactic is a joke to me, unless you are a person who believes in the Bible as the sole source of truth on these matters. I do not subscribe to that view.