hello to jwn!
this is standfirm.
i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.
Since there are dozens (at least!) of you and only one of me, I can't answer every question or issue you bring up. But I don't want to give superficial responses only either. So here is my question to JWN:
What ONE subject would you most want to debate with a JW defender?
Whatever subject gets the most 'votes' I will debate. Thanks.
hello to jwn!
this is standfirm.
i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.
OUTLAW writes:
"Jehovah`s Witness`s get No Mention as Gods Organization..Jehovah`s Witness`s FOLLOW Gods Organization,the WBT$.."
The Watchtower disagrees with you:
*** w53 4/1 p. 214 par. 21 Doing the Work Approved by God ***
there is only one organization that is pursuing the above-outlined course, namely, Jehovah’s witnesses. Inseparably associated with this widely known organization is its legal servant and governing agency, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.
isaacaustin: Proof?
pbrow: Do you even know what a troll is? And how have I monitized being a troll? I have no ads on my blog nor do I have a 'tip jar' or anything like that.
For those interested, the article you parody is located here.
palmtree67: The Society is part of the organization. But is not the sum and total of God's organization. That is what the other posters were saying.
jookbeard: I don't want to go too in-depth on here, but, as an example, you wrote:
"becoming a fully paid up member of the UN as an NGO"
Only states can become UN members. How a Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) can do that is beyond me. There are many more errors in your paragraph, but, I'll leave it at that for simplicity's sake.
keyser soze: What if one already read apostate websites? Should one (a) do research or (b) do nothing (according to the WTS)?
justifying people willing dying over the blood tranfusion issue is the same as osama justifying killing anyone who did not agree with his religious beliefs?
?.
Not at all. Anyone who refuses a blood transfusion does so of their own free will. No one forced them. This includes accepting the consequences that may bring, including death, although this is very rare.
hello to jwn!
this is standfirm.
i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.
Here is the thread about what the organization says about posting on websites. I'll only be discussing that there, otherwise I'll be saying the same things over and over on all different threads and that's no good.
Also, I am very familiar with the whole range of apostate claims, like 607 and those found on JW Facts. I also don't want to go too in-depth on any doctrinal subjects on this introductory thread.
satinka: No, I am not counting service time, and I have not told my elders. Why should I? Contrary to what is often implied by some people here, Witnesses don't need to run to the elders for every little thing.
yknot: I am neither MS or elder, I was born-in, that's all I'm willing to reveal about myself. Is a quote like this what you mean?
*** w08 1/1 pp. 8-9 When Will God’s Kingdom Come? ***
"4. Jesus’ presence is marked by a global preaching work. Jesus said that his presence would be like “the days of Noah.” (Matthew 24:37-39) Noah was more than an ark builder; he was also “a preacher of righteousness.” (2 Peter 2:5) Noah warned people that a judgment from God was on its way. Jesus said that his followers on earth would be doing something similar during his presence. He prophesied: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”—Matthew 24:14.
As we saw in the preceding article, God’s Kingdom will destroy all the governments of this world. The preaching work alerts people that this heavenly government is about to act, giving all an opportunity to escape the coming destruction and become subjects of that Kingdom. The key question, then, is, How will you respond?
Will God’s Kingdom Mean Good News for You?
The message that Jesus preached was one of incomparable hope. After the rebellion in Eden thousands of years ago, Jehovah God purposed to form a government that would set matters right, returning faithful humans to the condition that God had in mind for them from the start—life eternal in a paradise here on earth. What could be more thrilling than the knowledge that this long-promised government is ruling right now in heaven? It is not some remote, abstract concept but a living reality!
Now, God’s appointed King is ruling in the midst of his enemies. (Psalm 110:2) In this corrupt world alienated from God, the Messiah is fulfilling his Father’s desire to search out all who want to come to know God as he really is and to worship him “with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) The hope of living forever under the rule of God’s Kingdom is available to people of all races, ages, and social backgrounds. (Acts 10:34, 35) We urge you to take hold of the marvelous opportunity before you. Learn about God’s Kingdom now, so that you can enjoy living under its righteous rule forever!—1 John 2:17."
leapofthefrog: Andre is shown as a bad example not to be followed. But if one was already exposed to apostate ideas, then it shows that from there that honest research is what would to dispel them. At least, that is how the Society must feel. I agree.
Black Sheep: I prefer to do new thread rather than old ones, since I don't know what has already been covered. New threads on the same subjects would work well.
OUTLAW: See below reply to AnnOMaly.
the max: Thanks.
Peaches1978: I don't think I am acting cocky. On the other hand, what of those on this thread who are implying that I am not honest with myself or am ignorant simply because I don't believe as they do?
AnnOMaly: What you quoted was the old understanding. Even then, though, the publications also spoke of Witnesses as a whole as being God's organization also.
This is the relationship outlined today:
*** w01 1/15 p. 31 A Special Announcement ***
"Concerning the Pennsylvania corporation, Brother Barr added: “Ever since its incorporation in 1884, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania has played an important role in our modern-day history. Still, it is merely a legal instrument available for use by ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ when it is necessary.”"
But even in the past:
*** w53 4/1 p. 214 par. 21 Doing the Work Approved by God ***
there is only one organization that is pursuing the above-outlined course, namely, Jehovah’s witnesses. Inseparably associated with this widely known organization is its legal servant and governing agency, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Only Jehovah’s witnesses and their associates are bearing the fruits of the Kingdom by public proclamation. (Heb. 13:15) They alone are heralding forth the good news that God’s kingdom under Christ is man’s only hope.
Here a distinction is made between the Society and the organization.
this seems to be a favorite topic to bring up to any witnesses who post on any website where there are any opposers, either here or topix or anywhere.. so, here is the one and only place i will be discussing it.
who can prove that witnesses are specifically told not to post on websites about them?.
This seems to be a favorite topic to bring up to any Witnesses who post on any website where there are any opposers, either here or Topix or anywhere.
So, here is the one and only place I will be discussing it. Who can prove that Witnesses are specifically told not to post on websites about them?
imagine this scenario:.
step 1) the governing body produces a brochure entitled: "addressing misconceptions about jehovah's witnesses".
it brings all the apostate arguments out of the woodwork and addresses them (whether or not the answers make sense doesn't really matter).
What pirata suggests is very interesting.
On the one hand, it would be very fun to take over the internet. A brochure like you mentioned could be produced - it has been done before:
*** yb99 pp. 139-143 Germany ***
Now, replacing the former persecutors of Jehovah’s people, apostates took up the cudgel to beat their former Christian associates. (Matt. 24:48-51) During the late 1980’s and early 1990’s, these apostates became more vocal, their false accusations more numerous and virulent. Producers of some TV talk shows presented the apostates as being “experts” on Jehovah’s Witnesses....Of course, there are many people who accept without question what they hear on TV or read in the newspapers. In view of the frequency of the attacks on Jehovah’s Witnesses by the media, the Society prepared a 32-page brochure specifically to counteract this flood of misleading propaganda. It is entitled Your Neighbors, Jehovah’s Witnesses—Who Are They?...Initially, the brochure was intended only for people who raised questions about false charges being made against the Witnesses. [Later the cover was changed to make it more general-purpose.]
On the other hand, wouldn't it detract from the work of finding honest-hearted ones? Those who hate Witnesses or are biased against them or oppose them will do so with or without the internet.
Also, just as Witnesses create discussion forums designed to keep out opposers, so would the opposers were the Witnesses to take over the internet. So the end result is basically what you have now. As it is, both sides are already out there with our official website. Besides, people are smart, and those who have questions about what they hear about us on the internet or elsewhere can simply ask us about what they've heard.
So I don't think what pirata suggests would do us any good. Except for that brochure - I would love for such a thing to be released! So you all can keep up the opposition - the harder you push, the harder we push back!
hello to jwn!
this is standfirm.
i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.
I don't think this is the place to discuss doctrinal subjects on this introductory thread. As for the topic of whether or not Witnesses are allowed to post on forums such as this or not, I'd rather discuss that on its own thread. I'll start one when my 10 hour wait on starting a thread is up.
From page 1:
Retrovirus: Of course, my beliefs are open to adjustment too. It's just that I've never seen any apostate material I've found convincing.
sizemik: I've seen opposing material that was sensational and material that was not at all. In neither case was I convinced.
yknot: You are right about field service, but sometimes a discussion does involve defending. Thanks for the links, I have hard copies of all the older books and most booklets, and the Internet Archive website, and I do have the elders book already, but thanks.
pirata: I would say that I do agree with the whole package. I'll try to comment on your thread next.
inbetween: You mention the last Watchtower study article as being Pharasaical. What there was not scriptural?
From page 2:
tracylee: I don't know all the details of your situation, but what you mention does not mean that Witnesses are not the true religion. After all, similar things happened in the 1st century. There were Euodia and Syntyche, the 7 congregations in Revelation had many problems, and so on.
godrulz: That is only your opinion.
jean-luc picard: I'm not sure what post by "Pams girl" you are referring to. I'm sorry to hear that your Witness mother is lonely. My experience with Witnesses is the opposite of yours, I'd say the are the best people and religion. But, yes, problems do happen.
AnnOMaly: Funny resemblance! No, I am not, but my experience is quite similar (although I never stopped being a JW or reading our publications as Andre apparently did).
Reality79: I prefer Topix, that is true. I like the simplicity of the site's workings. I like the fact that there are several other pro-Witness posters there. But I'll try to stick around here for a little while.
Alfred: I have read some of the book. I'm sure there were personality issues and disputes among the Apostles (actually, we know there were-Acts 15:7, 39).
From page 3:
Marvin Shilmer's 1st: I agree.
leavingwt: Most of this site consists of people who already believe that Witnesses don't have the truth discussing with each other, and sometimes using derogatory statements about Witnesses to that effect. That doesn't seem like a good way to accomplish exposing them to contrary viewpoints any more than giving you guys here links to Witness-only discussion sites would be an answer to your questions. In the field ministry, on the other hand, one meets up with many opposing viewpoints.
Marvin Shilmer's 2nd: It's hard to prove the negative of "JWs are not forbidden to post on internet discussion sites". Since it is other posters here that are saying that I am not allowed to post on sites like this I will start as thread as soon as I can to give them to opportunity to prove it.
yknot: You can discuss the subject of 'who should be here' in that future thread. Also, I am not a 'she'.
I was unable to find a concise statement about the 'truth' or 'gospel' such as you ask for, but this should suffice:
*** rs p. 199 - p. 201 Jehovah’s Witnesses ***
"Jehovah’s Witnesses
Definition: The worldwide Christian society of people who actively bear witness regarding Jehovah God and his purposes affecting mankind. They base their beliefs solely on the Bible.
What beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses set them apart as different from other religions?
(1) Bible: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, they hold to the Bible as the standard for all their beliefs.
(2) God: They worship Jehovah as the only true God and freely speak to others about him and his loving purposes toward mankind. Anyone who publicly witnesses about Jehovah is usually identified as belonging to the one group—“Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
(3) Jesus Christ: They believe, not that Jesus Christ is part of a Trinity, but that, as the Bible says, he is the Son of God, the first of God’s creations; that he had a prehuman existence and that his life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a virgin, Mary; that his perfect human life laid down in sacrifice makes possible salvation to eternal life for those who exercise faith; that Christ is actively ruling as King, with God-given authority over all the earth since 1914.
(4) God’s Kingdom: They believe that God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind; that it is a real government; that it will soon destroy the present wicked system of things, including all human governments, and that it will produce a new system in which righteousness will prevail.
(5) Heavenly life: They believe that 144,000 spirit-anointed Christians will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, ruling as kings with him. They do not believe that heaven is the reward for everyone who is “good.”
(6) The earth: They believe that God’s original purpose for the earth will be fulfilled; that the earth will be completely populated by worshipers of Jehovah and that these will be able to enjoy eternal life in human perfection; that even the dead will be raised to an opportunity to share in these blessings.
(7) Death: They believe that the dead are conscious of absolutely nothing; that they are experiencing neither pain nor pleasure in some spirit realm; that they do not exist except in God’s memory, so hope for their future life lies in a resurrection from the dead.
(8) Last days: They believe that we are living now, since 1914, in the last days of this wicked system of things; that some who saw the events of 1914 will also see the complete destruction of the present wicked world; that lovers of righteousness will survive into a cleansed earth.
(9) Separate from the world: They earnestly endeavor to be no part of the world, as Jesus said would be true of his followers. They show genuine Christian love for their neighbors, but they do not share in the politics or the wars of any nation. They provide for the material needs of their families but shun the world’s avid pursuit of material things and personal fame and its excessive indulgence in pleasure.
(10) Apply Bible counsel: They believe that it is important to apply the counsel of God’s Word in everyday life now—at home, in school, in business, in their congregation. Regardless of a person’s past way of life, he may become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses if he abandons practices condemned by God’s Word and applies its godly counsel. But if anyone thereafter makes a practice of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, drug abuse, drunkenness, lying, or stealing, he will be disfellowshipped from the organization.
(The above list briefly states some outstanding beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses but by no means all the points on which their beliefs are different from those of other groups. Scriptural basis for the above beliefs can be found through the Index of this book.)"
the max: Looks like you spoke too soon.
godrulz: For something to be a lie, it is necessary to prove intent to deceive.
SweetBabyCheezits: I know about and try to practice critical thinking. As for the Bible, I don't want to go into tons of detail on this introductory thread, but, the way I see it, since I believe there is a God based on the evidence of the natural world, etc., then I believe that Christianity makes far more sense than any other religion, that it is the best way of approach to God. True Christianity demands that the Bible be true. Also, it makes sense that a God who created humans with that spiritual need and the quality of love would not unlovingly leave them in the lurch spiritually. The Bible gives more evidence than any other book of being that communication from God.
OUTLAW: Please prove your assertion that the WTBS is supposed to be God's organization and not acting on behalf of God's organization.
Cadellin: What you mention is a point I myself struggled with. What I've concluded in the matter I believe harmonizes both with the Bible and with the facts of history. I don't know if you want to go very in depth or not but would you like to discuss it on its own thread, or here?
flipper: You can believe as you wish, of course. I have kept up with personal study and I know the Watchtower article you are referring to, the 7/15/2011 one, right? I went over that at Topix.
I don't believe the Society believes it has anything to hide. Look at this quote from the 2/15/2011 Watchtower:
"Andre, who had served Jehovah for years, had the bitter experience of being led astray by apostate thinking. He felt that having a quick look at an apostate Web site would not be dangerous. He recalls: “Initially, I was attracted to the so-called truths that the apostates spoke of. The more I examined what they said, the more I came to think that I was justified in leaving Jehovah’s organization. But later, as I did some research on the apostates’ arguments against Jehovah’s Witnesses, I became aware of how crafty the false teachers were. Information taken out of context was their ‘strong evidence’ against us. Thus, I decided to start reading our publications again and to attend the meetings. Soon I realized how much I had missed.” Happily, Andre returned to the congregation." -p. 19
I see this to mean that those who are exposed to apostate arguments who do honest research on them will see them to be false.
The Society's warnings against associating with apostates are based on such scriptures as 2 John 9-11.
hello to jwn!
this is standfirm.
i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.
Wow! 3 more responses just in the time it took me to write the last one.
still thinking: I don't believe that the organization states that sites like this must be avoided when one already is familiar with the ideas presented. And no, I do not count time here. This is more of a hobby.
Maze: Hi there! Good to be here and give it a try.
GL Tirebiter: I will really try to be civil too. I've seen some ridicule of our religion here, (which is, by the way, against Posting Guideline 2 "Inciting hatred on the basis of ... religion"), just from reading, but, everyone, let's please disagree civilly. People who ridicule usually do so because their own cases is too weak to stand on the basis of logic.
hello to jwn!
this is standfirm.
i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.
Broken Promises: Apostates, like anyone else, try to get you to believe as they do by trying to prove their beliefs to you. I have seen those arguments and do not find them convincing.
Retrovirus: I like to practice defending my beliefs against opposing beliefs, voiced by whomever. This can also prove useful in the field ministry.
Simon: The WTS is a corporation that prints books and does other business on behalf of God's organization. I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are the truth because their doctrines align far more closely with the Bible than do those of any other religion, and they practice what they preach far more than any other religion.
TheLoveDoctor: A lie is different from being mistaken. To lie someone has to know that what they are saying is false but say it anyway. There is no proof the Witness organization has ever done this. Even if you later come to disagree with our doctrines does not mean you are being deceived. It is your choice to believe it, after all.
The actions of your wife are not the responsibility of the organization or of Witnesses in general but of her only.
The Bible commands true Christians to show love. (John 13:34, 35.) That is not manipulation.
The Bible in the case of disfellowshipping also does not make exceptions in the case of family members. At the same time, though, the Witnesses do allow for people to have contact for family business. Most Witnesses are reasonable in their application of this.
Finally, Christianity is supposed to be organized. In the 1st century all Christians obeyed the direction of the Apostles. The Apostles appointed men to oversee the congregations in a particular land, who in turn oversaw the local elders, who concentrated on one congregation.-Acts 16:4; Titus 1:5; Hebrews 13:17.
Satanus: I hope that any future accusations of dishonesty are well-grounded. Accusations would often fly with no proof back on Topix. Hope it isn't the same here.
hello to jwn!
this is standfirm.
i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.
Hello to JWN! This is StandFirm. I mainly post on the Topix Jehovah's Witness Forum, but I decided to give it a try over here also. I also am the author of the blog Jehovah's Witnesses Stand Firm.
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I was raised as a Witness. For a time I doubted whether this truly was the best way of life. So, I read a large amount of opposing and apostate material on the internet, a lot of which was here on JWN. I have seen every apostate talking point out there. Because I found the views of apostates logically deficient, I decided to put my convictions under the hardest test I could think of, which was posting on the above mentioned forum and writing the above mentioned blog. I now am more convinced than ever that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's organization on earth today.
So, it is with this that I introduce myself to JWN. I come here as I came to Topix - to keep my knowledge of the Scriptures and of the organization strong and my defenses the best they can be.
