NewWay

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  50

  Ray Franz has anyone read Crisi of Conscience?

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am interested in ray franz.

  can anybody comment on him?

  i've heard rumors, but partial ones from jw's.

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  NewWay

  Outlaw, the post is on the first page of this thread.
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  50

  Ray Franz has anyone read Crisi of Conscience?

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am interested in ray franz.

  can anybody comment on him?

  i've heard rumors, but partial ones from jw's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Outlaw, thanks for the welcome. I did explain briefly in another thread the reason for my return.
  
  Kind regards.
  
  "Blessed are the gentle: they shall have the earth as inheritance." "Blessed are the peacemakers: they shall be recognised as children of God." - Matthew 5:4 & 9 (NJB).
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  49

  Is There a HELL ??

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".

  i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".

  wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.

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  NewWay

  Hades "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption." - Acts 2:31 - Authorised Version (AV).The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) properly translates the word, which is rendered "hell" in the AV, as "hades"[1], while the New International Version (NIV) translates the word as "grave" - which is the basic meaning of the word. As observed by W E Vine (a well-known Greek scholar), the AV uses the word "hell" in some places where another word "ge'enna"[2] should be used. Thus, some people are confused as to what "hell" really means. Temporary death and eternal death In the New Testament (NT) scriptures there are two words used to describe two conditions of death. The first condition, called "hades" is a temporary death from which a resurrection is possible, and results from being a sinner as a descendant of Adam (Romans 6:23). The second condition, called "ge'enna" is an eternal death given to those whom God rejects by divine justice (Mark 9:47 & 48 - the original Greek word used here is "ge-enna"):
  
  "For as the new heavens and the new earth I am making will endure before me, declares Yahweh, so will your race and your name endure. From New Moon to New Moon, from Sabbath to Sabbath, all humanity will come and bow in my presence, Yahweh says. And on their way out they will see the corpses of those who rebelled against me; for their worm will never die nor their fire be put out, and they will be held in horror by all humanity." - Isaiah 66:22 to 24 (NJB).
  
  Often the word "ge'enna" is translated by some versions of the Bible as "hell" or "hell fire", but this can cause confusion if the same version translates "hades" as "hell." The use of terms like fire in conjunction with "ge-enna" are symbolic of total destruction, and have been used for illustrative purposes in the Bible (see Luke 16:14 to 31 where Jesus gives a parable to expose the greed of the Pharisees), with terms like "tormented day and night" (Revelation 20:10b) attached to show the utter hopelessness of ever being able to live again. God has never sanctioned torture, as it is not a thing that would even come up into his heart for consideration (compare Jeremiah 7:31b). He has always made death the final 'payment' for sin. In the book of Revelation the symbolic and permanent nature of the term "ge-enna" (where it is depicted as a "lake of fire") is described wherein even the intangible condition of temporary death (i.e. "hades" or "the grave") is thrown:
  
  "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:12 to 15 (NIV). Footnotes
  
  1 "Hades" - Concerning this word as found in the Bible, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words (VINE'S - on page 518) remarks:
  
  "The word is used four times in the Gospels, and always by the Lord, Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; it is used with reference to the soul of Christ, Acts 2:27, 31; Christ declares that He has the keys of it, Rev. 1:18; in Rev. 6:8 it is personified, with the signification of the temporary destiny of the doomed; it is to give up those who are therein, 20:13, and is to be cast into the lake of fire, ver.14."
  
  2 "Ge'enna" - VINE'S comments on this word on page 542:
  
  "GEENNA represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word; it is found twelve times in the N.T., eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself."
  
  The valley of Tophet(h) was a place where human sacrifices were made at one time, and became a place for unburied corpses (Jeremiah 7:30 to 33).

  Copying/Printing/Distribution I'm happy for readers to make copies of this article in electronic/printed form as long as the whole article (including footnotes and any notices) is reproduced and not used as part of a commercial project. Web site address is http://www.semachiah.fsnet.co.uk
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  50

  Ray Franz has anyone read Crisi of Conscience?

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am interested in ray franz.

  can anybody comment on him?

  i've heard rumors, but partial ones from jw's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  NewWay

  Bleep, I shouldn't encourage such a thing, it might turn out to be a pandora's box of iconoclastic proportions!
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  10

  WORD STUDY - 'Wicked'

  by NewWay in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  word study .

  'wicked' - part 1

  "if i say to a *wicked man, 'you shall die,' and you do not warn him - you do not speak to warn the *wicked man of his *wicked course in order to save his life - he, the *wicked man, shall die for his iniquity, but i will require a reckoning for his blood from you.

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  NewWay

  Vivamus, that thought had crossed my mind! However, I've learned that these ancient languages can sometimes seem like they contradict or sound strange when put into English. A case in point is when Jesus tells his disciples to pick out a house and "stay there until you leave" (NWT). That sounds pretty obvious to me! However, the sense is that the disciples would find a home to stay for the duration of their ministry in that area, and not move about from home to home staying at different places until they left. I'm afraid we'll have to wait until there's a study on the word 'TELL'! ;o)
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  50

  Ray Franz has anyone read Crisi of Conscience?

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am interested in ray franz.

  can anybody comment on him?

  i've heard rumors, but partial ones from jw's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Bleep, I understand your reaction. However, I would humbly suggest being very careful about saying things that might cause 'ruffled feathers'. Mention of Satan with regard to one's reading of Ray Franz book amounts to a value judgement. Before I actually plucked up courage to read the book I almost viewed it as poison! However, if you do read it with an open, non-judgemental mind, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. This also goes for Ray Franz' other book 'In Search Of Christian Freedom'. Even if you come away from reading his book(s) with the same view you have today, at least you can honestly say you've made an informed decision about his book(s). There are different characters here who vary as to intensity of expression (to put it mildly), so if you don't want to be called names (not that I agree with that, but then that's me), 'watch how you walk and watch how you talk' to quote one Kingdom Melody.
  
  Kind regards.
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  10

  WORD STUDY - 'Wicked'

  by NewWay in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  word study .

  'wicked' - part 1

  "if i say to a *wicked man, 'you shall die,' and you do not warn him - you do not speak to warn the *wicked man of his *wicked course in order to save his life - he, the *wicked man, shall die for his iniquity, but i will require a reckoning for his blood from you.

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  NewWay

  WORD STUDY

  'Wicked' - Part 1

  "If I say to a *wicked man, 'You shall die,' and you do not warn him - you do not speak to warn the *wicked man of his *wicked course in order to save his life - he, the *wicked man, shall die for his iniquity, but I will require a reckoning for his blood from you. But if you do warn the *wicked man, and he does not turn back from his wickedness and his *wicked course, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have saved your own life." - Ezekiel 3:18 & 19 (Tanakh The Holy Scriptures - The New JPS Translation)

  * 'wicked': (1) HEBREW - Strong's 7563 = RASHA = "morally wrong"; "an (actively) bad person".
  
  (2) GREEK LXX - Strong's 459 = ANOMOS = "lawless, i.e. (neg.) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by impl. a Gentile), or (pos.) wicked".
  
  Compare the use of the Greek word 'anomos' in this New Testament extract:
  
  "Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless [Greek = 'anomos'] and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators [Greek = 'pornos' = 'a (male) prostitute'], sodomites [Greek = arsen+koite = 'male'+'by impl. the male sperm'; hence modern 'coitus' = 'sexual intercourse'], slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." - 1 Timothy 1:8-11 (New Revised Standard Version). (To be continued...)
  (Edited because certain special letters were lost and had to be replaced)

  Edited by - NewWay on 22 July 2002 13:43:9
• 
  50

  Ray Franz has anyone read Crisi of Conscience?

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am interested in ray franz.

  can anybody comment on him?

  i've heard rumors, but partial ones from jw's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Waiting thanks for the info. I have been to the web site you mentioned. Randy and I part company on some beliefs. My position is essentially the same as Ray's (as mentioned by Jan). I have not given up my faith in Jehovah or his son Jesus Christ, and for me much of what I believed as an 'active' (in the society's view) JW is still acceptable to me - I am not an apostate from the Christian faith as plainly shown in the Scriptures. I don't accept the 'chronologies' of the society nor do I subscribe to their 'greater fullfilment' modus operandum. I do believe though that what was recorded in the Bible concerning literal Israel has been placed as a 'warning example' of what can happen to those who claim to be God's sole channel of communication.
  
  As for the 'theocratic warfare', stealing is stealing. Nowhere does the Bible justify theft as a means to fight the 'opposition'. It is a crime. If some JW does steal the book I bought then they obviously have double-standards.
  
  NW.
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  50

  Ray Franz has anyone read Crisi of Conscience?

  by 67mustang in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am interested in ray franz.

  can anybody comment on him?

  i've heard rumors, but partial ones from jw's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  NewWay

  Yes, I'm back. I couldn't resist! I just needed some time to readjust to the heady world of online forums with their diverse mix of people and opinions.
  
  Last week I received my order of the latest edition of Ray's book 'Crisis of Conscience' and scanned it for new information. I made up my mind that I would donate it to my home town lending library so that it will be available to local readers - I already have the previous edition. I've also finished reading "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" by Carl Olof Jonsson, and was amazed at his scolarly work in questioning the WTS chronology.
  
  NW.
  
  BTW: Thanks to all those who posted kind messages on my "Last Post" thread. I hope to continue posting in the future.
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  33

  Last Post

  by NewWay in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  last post

  thanks to everyone here who welcomed me two weeks ago.

  my intention when i first came to the site was to simply find information and see what others were saying about the jw organisation, then i felt inclined to post myself, including sharing my personal experiences.

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  NewWay

  LAST POST

  
  
  Thanks to everyone here who welcomed me two weeks ago. My intention when I first came to the site was to simply find information and see what others were saying about the JW organisation, then I felt inclined to post myself, including sharing my personal experiences. This forum is well represented by people of different views and there are plenty of people here able to give support and encouragement to JWs troubled by what they see and what they have heard going on in the organisation. As I explained from the beginning I stopped attending meetings regularly a few years ago and now no longer go at all. I have a wife who is still associating with one of the local congregations. I have had some very positive feelings coming to this site, but I am now ready to move on and spend my spare time on other activities that do not remind me of the WTS - I hope you can understand that. If anyone - apart those who want to cause trouble (they are not welcome) - wishes to keep in touch with me and keep me informed of any important news then I can be emailed via [email protected].
  
  Kind regards.