Europe: I think it has already been brought out in a previous post that this is not Ray Franz' comments (as can be seen from the extracts from his book which I posted above), but those of a reviewer of his book. I know at amazon.com and other online bookstores that many buyers have used the facility to give personal reviews of books.
NewWay
JoinedPosts by NewWay
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93
Don't buy into Ray Franz's stumbling block.
by Bleep inray franz wrote, "i was baptized a jehovah's witness in 1972 (three years before armageddon came) and served as an elder for a good number of years.
all i can say is put franz book to the test for yourself.
1)he is making money off a dumb idea.. 2)he was expecting 1975 to be armageddon.
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93
Don't buy into Ray Franz's stumbling block.
by Bleep inray franz wrote, "i was baptized a jehovah's witness in 1972 (three years before armageddon came) and served as an elder for a good number of years.
all i can say is put franz book to the test for yourself.
1)he is making money off a dumb idea.. 2)he was expecting 1975 to be armageddon.
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NewWay
The Watchtower Publications Index (1930-1985) has the following entry: Raymond V Franz
Gilead graduation: w76 671-2
service tours: km 5/77 1
France: yb80 159; w79 1/1 11
termination of service as member of the Governing Body
and Bethel family: km 8/80 2
Key: w = watchtower; km = kingdom ministry; yb = year book -
93
Don't buy into Ray Franz's stumbling block.
by Bleep inray franz wrote, "i was baptized a jehovah's witness in 1972 (three years before armageddon came) and served as an elder for a good number of years.
all i can say is put franz book to the test for yourself.
1)he is making money off a dumb idea.. 2)he was expecting 1975 to be armageddon.
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NewWay
Who Is Raymond Franz?
The best way to get to 'know' who Raymond Franz is and his association with Jehovah's Witnesses is to read his book "Crisis of Conscience" (ISBN: 0-914675-04-4, published by Commentary Press - this relates to the 3rd edition). However, reproduced below is a collection of quotations from that book which will give a brief overview. Quotes From "Crisis Of Conscience" (3rd Edition) by Raymond Franz
"From babyhood up into my sixteenth year, my life was spent in association with Jehovah's Witnesses." - Page 8, para 2.
"In 1939 I was baptized and in June, 1940, on graduating from high school I immediately entered full-time service in witnessing activity." - Page 11, para. 2.
"Some months later I was in Indianapolis, Indiana, for a superior court hearing involving the Connersvilled events. My uncle, *Fred Franz, a member of the Watch Tower headquarters staff since 1920 and a close associate of *Judge Rutherford, was also there from Brooklyn as sort of an expert witness on the Society's behalf." - Page 12, para. 3 - *Fred Franz later became the fourth president of the Watchtower Society; *Judge Rutherford was the then (second) president of the Watchtower Society.
"In 1942, a 'special pioneer' assignment in Wellston, Ohio, brought other experiences." - Page 15, para. 3.
"In 1944, an invitation came to attend a missionary school, the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead, for a five-months course. Upon graduation and while awaiting a missionary assignment, I spent a year and a half in traveling work, visiting congregations in a 'Circuit' that took in the state of Arizona and a large section of California. When visiting congregations in the San Diego, California, area I spent five nights at 'Beth Sarim' (meaning 'House of Princes'). This was a large home built by the Society and said to be 'held in trust' for the faithful men of old, from Abel onward, to be used by them upon their resurrection. Judge Rutherford, who had had some lung problems, spent the winters there during his life." - Page 16, para. 2.
"Thereafter I was assigned to the island of Puerto Rico (viewed as still within the U.S.A.). Before leaving, in 1946, Nathan Knorr, now president of the Society (Rutherford having died in early 1942), talked to a group of us, all young men being sent out to do supervisory work in different countries as 'Branch Overseers.' Among other things he strongly stressed that if we wished to remain in our missionary assignments we should avoid anything that might lead to courtship and marriage. The policy was: Loss of singleness means loss of assignment." - Page 16, para. 3.
"Within a year or so I was assigned to do travelling work, visiting congregations in the island and in the neighboring Virgin Islands (lying to the east of Puerto Rico)." - Page 17, para. 3.
"In 1957 all the American missionaries of the Witnesses were expelled from the Dominican Republic in the wake of a wave of violent persecution, many local Witnesses being brutally beaten and imprisoned...The Society asked me to go in and check on the conditions of the native Dominican Witnesses." - Page 18, para. 2 & 3.
"Later the Society changed its policy on marriage and, thirteen years after arriving in Puerto Rico and now approaching 37 years of age, I married. Cynthia, my wife, joined me in traveling work." - Page 18, para. 5.
"We continued in traveling work until 1961 and then were transferred to the neighbouring Dominican Republic...During our nearly five years there, we saw the fall of four separate governments and in April of 1965 experienced a war that centered around the capital where we were located" - Page 19, para. 3 & 4.
"The remaining fifteen years of full-time service were quite different, as they were spent at the international headquarters in Brooklyn, New York." - Page 20, para. 1.
"What I saw, heard and experienced during the next fifteen years had a great impact on me. Whether the reaction of the reader will coincide with mine, I have no way of knowing, but one thing is certain and that is that no one could understand what brought me to a crisis situation without knowing these developments. The proverb is apt: 'When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears it, that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation'." - Page 20, para. 4.
"A few months after our arrival and after I had done some work in writing, President Knorr showed me into an office containing a table piled high with stacks of typed papers and asked me to undertake the development of a Bible dictionary...Others shared intermittently for varying periods but the *five persons mentioned carried the project through until the 1,696-page reference work, called Aid to Bible Understanding, was completed five years later." - Page 21, para. 1 - *The 'five persons' were Lyman Swingle, Edward Dunlap, Reinhard Lengtat, John Wischuk, and of course the author (Raymond Franz).
"It seemed an awesome responsibility for me when I became one of eleven members of the worldwide Governing Body in 1971 (the number later grew to as many as eighteen in 1977 and as of the year 2000 now stands at thirteen)." - Page 42, para. 3.
"May 22, 1980. Governing Body. Dear Brothers: By means of this letter I submit my resignation as a member of the Governing Body. I will also be terminating my Bethel service. My prayers will continue to be offered on your behalf as well as for Jehovah God's servants earthwide. Your brother, R V Franz." - Reproduction of letter, Page 322. In summary then, this is a brief resume of the main activities of Raymond Franz whilst associated with the Watchtower Society:
* 1922 - Born into Jehovah's Witness family
* 1939 - Baptized.
* 1940 - Entered full-time service in witnessing activity.
* 1942 - Became a 'special pioneer'.
* 1944-1965 - Various assignments in missionary and travelling work (i.e. Circuit Overseer).
* 1965-1970 - Major writing assignment involving the Bible dictionary Aid to Bible Understanding.
* 1971-1980 - Serves as a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
* 1980 - Resigns as a Governing Body member. -
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Please welcome this new member..... thanks
by LyinEyes ini just wanted to introduce you all to a new member, he goes by the name of pretender.
he made his first post today, and i am hoping he will continue to come in.
he is a wonderful person and he has alot to offer.
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NewWay
Welcome Pretender! I look forward to hearing you story.
Kind regards. -
93
Don't buy into Ray Franz's stumbling block.
by Bleep inray franz wrote, "i was baptized a jehovah's witness in 1972 (three years before armageddon came) and served as an elder for a good number of years.
all i can say is put franz book to the test for yourself.
1)he is making money off a dumb idea.. 2)he was expecting 1975 to be armageddon.
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NewWay
With respect, bleep, I would recommend buying the book in order to make up one's own mind. Whether it is a 'stumbling block' is a matter of personal opinion, but unless one has actually read it then one is not in a position to judge it in an informed manner. As far as money goes, do we not remember the principle of not 'muzzling a bull while it is threshing'? This man has no retirement money coming from years of service to the WTS, and judging by the time, research and other resources spent in producing this book, it is only proper that he should receive something back as a result. It is not money that is evil, but 'the love of money'.
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"The Faithful & Discreet Slave" -...
by NewWay in"the faithful and discreet slave" - an explanation .
the following examination and observations concerning "the faithful and discreet slave" are offered for consideration.
i am aware that it differs from other explanations, so it is understood that the reader may differ in his/her conclusions.
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NewWay
bjc: Yes, I understand, of course you were refering to the 'body of attendants' or the 'household' which is why I believe we are talking about the 'body of Christ'. Both the F&DS and the members of the 'household' constitute membership of the Christian congregation. The F&DS provides a specific function of providing 'feeding' or 'teaching'. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the matter of 'greater fulfillment' exergesis as a modus operandum.
Kind regards. -
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"The Faithful & Discreet Slave" -...
by NewWay in"the faithful and discreet slave" - an explanation .
the following examination and observations concerning "the faithful and discreet slave" are offered for consideration.
i am aware that it differs from other explanations, so it is understood that the reader may differ in his/her conclusions.
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NewWay
bjc: I appreciate your response to my post. You've made a very important point concerning 'nursing' and healing. We are both agreed that the F&DS performs a service of care for those who need it. The 'body of Christ' as slaves of God and hence members of his 'household', I believe is in view here, so any healing done is on their behalf. Although I am very careful about applying ancient prophecies regarding literal Israel to the modern day - not 'going beyond the things that are written', I do think that this scripture at least sums the type of 'care' that would be given:
"Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and ministers shall govern with justice; every one of them shall be like a refuge from gales, a shelter from rainstorms; like brooks of water in a desert, like the shade of a massive rock in a languishing land." - Isaiah 32:1 & 2 (Tanakh The Holy Scriptures - JPS)
This has often been applied by JWs to elders. As I said in my first post, an 'elder' is not an elder simply by appointment (i.e. being given a label), but by his spiritual qualifications which include a Christ-like attitude and conduct that becomes a Christian. Of course from a scriptural point of view, simply being able to teach the scriptures does not make one an 'elder'.
Kind regards. -
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A Quartet Of Questions For You Know...
by hillary_step ingiven your reaction to mr. andersons letter of resignation recently posted to this board, which seemed sympathetic, i would like to ask four questions of you, which of course you are at liberty not to answer.
1 ) how do you personally feel about the fact that the wts is now moving to disfellowship mr. anderson for writing that letter?.
2) if mr. anderson were to begin posting to this board, how would you view him?.
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NewWay
"You know the Bible says, 'Do not go beyond the things that are written.' We don't go beyond the things that are written." - Ted Jaracz
Oh, really?! -
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A Quartet Of Questions For You Know...
by hillary_step ingiven your reaction to mr. andersons letter of resignation recently posted to this board, which seemed sympathetic, i would like to ask four questions of you, which of course you are at liberty not to answer.
1 ) how do you personally feel about the fact that the wts is now moving to disfellowship mr. anderson for writing that letter?.
2) if mr. anderson were to begin posting to this board, how would you view him?.
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NewWay
Jack2, you've nailed the thing on the head. What I said was that the NT does not give Christians an exergisis rule that they can use as a modus operandum. Whatever is not in the scriptures by way of 'greater fulfillment' application is purely a personal interpretation.
Regards. -
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"The Faithful & Discreet Slave" -...
by NewWay in"the faithful and discreet slave" - an explanation .
the following examination and observations concerning "the faithful and discreet slave" are offered for consideration.
i am aware that it differs from other explanations, so it is understood that the reader may differ in his/her conclusions.
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NewWay
Plmkrzy: It's not something that I've considered in some time. I take the view that although I've been a Bible student since the year dot, I should always be open to others' views. One should always keep a humble outlook and be willing to learn. However, 'off the top of my head' (this view may very well change!). At Revelation 6:9-11, it describes 'souls' under the altar who had obviously met a martyr's death. Those Christian 'souls' were asking 'how long' it would be before God avenged their death. This I see as being before the 'master' Jesus returns. So it may be that the first-fruits represents the first converts to Christianity in the first few centuries, a time that saw many Christians losing their lives for their faith. That of course is only an opinion. I think you will find that I am quite teachable, so please if you have some difference of view (even scriptural evidence) please feel free to share it!
Kind regards.