exactly fink.... they are based on the animation of the living stopping and the ignorance of why and what changed. The assumption being the inner you, the soul departing. I see why they thought it.... but in 2014, such ideas are hope and faith alone, evidence has shown us exactly why and what happens. Just as all living organisms cease to function so do we. Does a soul depart a dead tree, a dead bacterium? A dead pig?
snare&racket
JoinedPosts by snare&racket
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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snare&racket
Computers are the best thing on planet earth at calculating , we use them to do exactly that!
I don't think you know what you mean anymore.
We know what is true by what is evident. Truth by definition is belief based on evidence.
But it is easy to prove you wrong about what you think truth is, you see it as infinite truth.....something we dont have! Never have had! We have made many mistakes as a race as have many living things. Believing assumptions such as the earth being flat, but when more,evidence came to light, adapted our 'truth'.
Truth is dependant on what we learn via our inputs, our eyes, our nose, our ears...all our senses. We saw a flat earth with our eyes and for most of humanity that was the truth about our pkanet, of course it wasn't true.
You assume our truths are true and therefore there must be a source. But we will likely be proven wrong about much that we know. So how can you guve 'truth' such status?
What is tue, is simply what we observe. One and one apples amounts to having two apples.
That is logic and language, we assigned the word apple to the item in the tree and we measure quantity with words we have ascribed a number system to.
Somehow you think this means there is a soul. Without explaining it, you say "i am not sure you understand."
Of course I don't! I don't think you do either. We have now gone from math, to truth... I wonder what is next?
You can't ascribe truth to maths, it is our mechanism of measurement. We literally wrote the rules for maths and continue to do so. We have math based on a decimal system, as I said, it could have been based on a system of 6 heximal? and we would have computers earlier in human history (maybe). Math is not a perfect, unbreakable truth!
I could say the length of my forearm is the measurement 'zingabumbum' and then quantify a numerical system based on my forearm measurement and the bum bum numerical system. It would be useable, it would be true, it would be applicable to science, learning, logic...everything... but it would be my invention. Hardly infinite truth.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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snare&racket
Do you think a dog has a soul, because dogs do math all the time..... they are amazing at geometry...and for once I am being serious. Throw a ball in the sea at an angle from where you are, for example and they use pythagoras to work out the length of the longest side, they will usually run down the beach perpendicular to where you threw it in, then swim 90 degrees straight to the ball, rather than hop into the sea and swim a longer distance.
I have no idea what that answer was by the way, no disrespect.
Also, you are assuming we do know everything anout maths, you even invoked infinity....We don't and our math and probability skills stink!
The only reason we know math works like that, is not because we know everything, but because math doesnt change.
Math is the assigning of value to a measured entity, be it number of items or distance or whatever. Been as the value we assign never changes, one will always be one and founded on decimal thinking, i.e. in tens, this will bever change, because we made the rules.
Scientists think we would have computers alot earlier if we had 6 fingers, as we would not have made a math system based on ten, but on 6, just as computers work.
Your perception of everything is restricted hugely by what you don't know, be it how we formed maths or human biology. I mean no offence by that statement. I am restricted too, that is why I do not claim to know the existence of unproven entities such as souls or otherwise.
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If I asked for a loan from the WBTS would they give it to me?
by objectivetruth inif this were the "organization" that jesus chose in 1914.. err 1919, wouldn't the principles that he laid out while on earth apply to this organization as well?.
matthew 5:42 "give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.".
so if jw's all asked for loans from the org, every now and then, it would be the orgs responsibility to grant those loans (interest free).
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snare&racket
They do have protocols for financially helping the very poorest of the members n dire need. But this is so rare you never ever hear of it and I am half sure the money comes from the elders own pockets when it happens locally.
I would be amazed if it happened ever....ever...ever...
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The Savannah Disputation
by creativespirit insaw a new play at the penguin rep theatre, located in stony point, ny - rockland county, this afternoon, called "the savannah disputation".
it was, i am sure, patterned on jw's knocking on doors and their views on the catholic church.
a lot of the dialogue was exactly what i used to preach, although, at one point they pointedly say, oh no, this is not jw's, jw's is the watchtower.. many of the plays that start here eventually make it to broadway.. this plays thru 6/8.
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snare&racket
Just had a quick read, it is about evangelical protestants, of which JW's are one of many such groups.
Looks good.
Thanks xxx
p.s. kinda jealous that I don't live in NY, would love to enjoy so much culture.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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snare&racket
No.... if you don't understand where you just went wrong, there is no point continuing. That was either dishonest or illogical.
On the off chance it was illogical....
I just asked why a soul is necessary for there to be consciousness within biology alone, and your answer is there is no soul in biology alone.
I hope you can see your flawed approach. You have started with the assumption of a soul, fine if you want to believe in one without evidence. But if you claim there is logic to believing in a soul because we are conscious....
well, then you have to answer the question...
for a 6th time....
WHAT IS MISSING? what does biology NOT DO, that you believe is required to make something conscious? You must believe a soul has a role (ta da). What is it? What do you think a soul does so as to assume we must have one?
I see NO ROLE in producing consciousness that out biology alone, does not produce.
Our biology can create this idea we have of consciousness.......WITHOUT the assumption of a soul.
your answer is.....well there is a soul....:P
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7
"You should grow a beard if you're a man of God (slam)!!!"
by SonoftheTrinity inif jehovah's witnesses are taught the "truth" that people are afraid of men with beards, wouldn't sending them the vibe that clean shaven men are creepy, as indeed they are in some localities on some faces be the best favor you could do them.
imagine if every trinitarian christian told them the same thing instead of engaging in a conversation with them.
in the part of california where i live them telling me that beards are threatening to some people is like those hipsters who attend the "no pants subway ride" on the subway in the middle of winter and then say that it just felt too warm today to be wearing pants.
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snare&racket
Apparantly, the 8 window cleaners in Brooklyn (gods representatives) did not influence beards? Satan is at it again with the 'E' word....
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Matt Dillahunty V Sye Ten debate, tonight in USA.
by snare&racket insorry, two threads.... also remember to look out for this debate as it hits the internet in the next few hours, it is going on right now in the usa.. http://recoveringfromreligion.org/refiningreason/.
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please post links to the debate and thoughts here as two philosophical gladiators go into battle... .
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snare&racket
Sorry, two threads...
Also remember to look out for this debate as it hits the internet in the next few hours, it is going on right now in the USA.
http://recoveringfromreligion.org/refiningreason/
Please post links to the debate and thoughts here as two philosophical gladiators go into battle...
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17
After JWs inherit the earth...
by Zoos in... will they destroy all great pieces of religious art?.
just finished watching monuments men.
great movie!
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snare&racket
Go to bethel...... spend a month living by their rules for an idea of how it may be under big brothers government.
I had a music cd from the film the matrix, it was in a huge cd rack, it was picked out as one track was by marylin manson.
A housekeeper had 'happened' by it, tucked away in my cd rack.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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snare&racket
Why not ask a question instead of answering my question.
For the third time now.....
What is missing from input, processing and output...that you feel consciousness requires?
I see no missing element provided by biological, material means. I see no room or requirement for a soul or anything to meet the definition of conscious,
As for your question, as I have said several times, it is a theory, we have never designed a computer with that aim. No your dell is not conscious. No my ipad is not conscious.
No I made clear I do not believe there is a concept of 'levels' of consciousness so no my computer is not somewhat conscious or less conscious. It has not been built to replicate a conscious organism, it has been built to send emails and watch Froch beat Groves via live streaming. However as I said in my first reply, I do believe we would and could see A.I. soon... a 'conscious' technology.
Again seraphim, the fourth time, in the hope you answer it....
What is missing in INPUT, PROCESSING and OUTPUT, that we know the brain can achieve through physiology alone, that would require an outside source for or any source other than biological....to have 'consciousness'. Again, what is missing from the natural?
Self aware and aware of the external...we are...we can see we are alive, on a planet, with a finite existence and with dangers to our existence. We can see we are one of many animals, many of our own species. We survive, interact and procreate and ALL with biological means.
So a fifth time, this time with bold and highlighting.....
What is missing from the simple, materialistic.......input, processing and output....... to produce 'consciousness'?