Go get a great book called .... The Lost Christianities
snare&racket
JoinedPosts by snare&racket
-
9
Food for thought-if it wasn't for the Roman Catholic church would Christianity have faded out into oblivion?
by nowwhat? insince it was the church that put together the bible canon and it was was them that spread the teaching throughout the known world.
thoughts?.
-
-
-
9
JW's growth dwarfed by a sect of Islam!
by The Fall Guy inthe new islamic sect started just after russell kicked off his new religion.
they also used volunteers to help build western europe's largest mosque in london for £15m.
(must have had god's blessing).
-
-
snare&racket
I remember asking my parents why Islam is not in any bible prophecy or JW interpretations. That was approx 1993, aged 13 after 'studying' with a Muslim man in our housing estate.
The WT had a book (mankinds search for god) with info on all other religions and it said Islam was the fastest growing religion, I remember wondering why that wouldn't be significant to end times prophecy in the bible.
Well, Islam was invented after the last books of the bible were written and they are not prophetic. Wachtower are not spirit inspired intepreters, so whilst spending 20 years talking about Catholics, the Russians and Anglo-America, they never mentioned the number one controversial, religious, cultural, political movement of these times.... ISLAM. Because it had not occurred yet! What a score that would have been in 2001 had they hinted at it!
They didn't even see sense enough to change their old light to new and name Islam the king of the North. Half read JW's would have said ...yes ... Syria, the caliphate, the middle east is North of Israel ....kinda .....and it all makes perfect sense....(though it doesn't) .....but wow if I was in those HQ wednesday meetings I could have convinced them lol
-
38
No Need To Preach In Every Country Anymore
by pale.emperor inspeaking to a pimo from my hometown yesterday.
he told me that in the watchtower study (10 nov 2019) regarding “the great tribulation” the elder on the platform said that there’s no need for jws to preach in every country in order to fulfil the prophecy, and therefore the org has already fulfilled that prophecy.
and that there’s nothing else left to wait for now but for “the great tribulation” to come.. gasps of delight came from the audience.. has anyone else heard this?
-
-
snare&racket
Maybe they heard of the Evangelicals travelling to those native islands off the coast of India, only to have deadly spears, bows and arrows welcome them.....the Sentinelese?
Time for 'new light'...
From surprising personal experiences, there are Westerners who haven't heard of JW's, never-mind the hundreds maybe thousands of rural tribes globally.
It was easy in the 80's to throw stats about translation figures alongside pictures of awkward, aged, Westerners in foreign lands preaching, with 'and the whole world will know that you are Jehovah' jn a quote next to it.... Now with the internet, not only does a clued up JW know that they are nowhere near known or preaching in all countries or 'lands' .... there are not many JW's in turbans preaching to the vast number of humanity in the middle east and are banned in Russia and China.
Also, a quick google search shows gods name deffo aint even Jehovah....lol.... so so so embarrassing
-
6
Your thoughts?
by Iamallcool inhttps://www.watoday.com.au/world/jehovahs-witnesses-recover-best-from-surgery-despite-refusing-blood-20120703-21fi1.html .
-
-
snare&racket
This is not a new paper and has been discussed widely. It is interesting though.
Your body needs oxygen delivered to every cell every second for tissue to survive, only blood can do that, via haemoglobin, no alternative or synthetic replacement can do that or exists in Medical use or ever has. (Haemopure is made from Cow blood and some JW's have accepted it, it causes strokes, heart attacks and death so is banned from use for anyone other than JW's in some countries....again....it is made from blood, cow blood, it's not a synthetic invention of any kind).
Sometimes if you lose blood through injury or trauma or illness, you can buy time by stopping the bleeding as best as possible and introducing fluid (saline) into the vessels to keep the blood that is remaining flowing and circulating. At the end of the day however, if you lose enough blood that it acutely endangers your life via not being able to transport enough oxygen to your vital organs, only one fluid can potentially reverse the inevitable and keep you alive.........blood. If you add just more fluid it dilutes the haemoglobin and your body cant run off water in its veins and arteries, it needs blood. Water or anything else, cant carry oxygen to your organs and the organs, importantly your heart and brain can only survive several minutes without that oxygen delivery.
Blood comes with risks, it can carry disease, it can cause electrolyte imbalances and it can cause immune reactions amongst other issues, However when someone is dying and probability dictates that they will likely die without blood, it is obviously given and millions of lives are saved this way.
So how can this paper be interpreted? Firstly understand it, If someone needs blood to live and doesn't receive it ....they will die, Patients that live whilst declining transfusion either didn't need it or skated death by dropping their haemoglobin levels to the extreme and the body replaced them just in time, likely time bought by medical intervention. It's not up for debate remember.... if you lose your blood ....you die.... its essential. So these patients did not cross that line of needing blood to live, as they ...lived. It's not a clesr line by the way, everyones tolerance for blood loss is different. Wanting to keep people alive we stay on the side of caution, giving transfusions earlier than later as some people deteriorate far quicker than others.
The research (there are many similar studies and papers)
You will notice the Watchtower, repeatedly quote bloodless surgery papers, but they are all around the same time, all about cardiac surgery specifically and often taken wildly out of context or not explained at all sufficiently, going on to justify saying 'no to blood' as if it is a clinical mistake to accept a transfusion in all cases. The reality is, cardiac surgeons got into the habit of giving blood to their patients pre-operatively, knowing that they were going to cause bleeding in their procedures. This seemed logical and a prophylactic approach to an operation of major vessels with potential heavy bleeding. Why not top up the patient BEFORE the procedure or routinely after it, whether clinically needed or not? Of course, amongst these stats are patients who suffered major haemorrhage and required transfusions related to the procedure, but the research papers are about procedures where unnecessary blood transfusions were given to patients as a precautionary measure without evidence backing this approach.
Research showed that cardiac surgery with blood transfusions, when compared to patients who didn't receive blood was of poorer statistical outcome. Modern medicine, with hindsight says ....well obviously....blood has risks.
But it is important to ask what the data is actually saying. Giving blood when not needed can cause harm that is statistically evident when compared to those that declined it in cardiac surgery procedures.
To give context, blood is not unique or special in having risks....pick any medical intervention...they ALL do. Recent research shows that giving oxygen to someone having a heart attack if they dont need oxygen can cause a worse outcome for the patient. Yet go to a hospital and see hoe many people are kept alive with oxygen. Context is EVERYTHING.
Also, we must think deeper and critically appraise the data...were more refined, better, techniques used and developed for the people declining blood due to the lack of a transfusion option. Were the surgeons being more careful?Were the people who received blood transfusion during the procedure sicker, needing the blood and with expected worse outcomes from being sicker?
For me..... the research tells me that blood has risks previously not appreciated so acutely. It's as dangerous as giving oxygen or fluids or medication inappropriately when used without care. Despite this, when your life depends on a transfusion there is no alternative to blood. Also, there is no evidence in this paper that speaks on anything other than this specific procedure and the results specific to it, it has no say on the outcome of all the other procedures done with pre-operative blood.
I have prescribed blood and saved many lives, the heroes being those that selflessly donate it. Of course there are consequences to using it, within modern medicine the evidence is not surprising. The human body detects and reacts to anything foreign or unexpected. To take blood from human A, treat it, store it, put it in human B... of course there are going to be negative consequences in it's use. There is no medical intervention without consequence, be it oxygen, water, food, pills, joint replacements. I'd argue even the simple act of looking over a patient as a doctor has risks and consequences, raising the blood pressure, or an an examination that disrupts a fragile piece of anatomy or 'simple' X-ray imaging that inadvertently damages a tiny piece of DNA presenting as cancer ten years later.....they all have consequences. Blood transfusions are to be appreciated in this context.
As for the WT stance:
I have one question now, after 25 years a JW and many years in the medical field....
Jesus, when confronted about clearly breaking god's law, punishable by death, in order to eat, asked who wouldn't break the law, to save a lamb down a well on the sabbath? He then went on to say how the word of the law and it's principle should never be misunderstood, making clear the value of life over law.
How on earth can the governing body celebrate the faith of children and adults who have died in order to remain lawful as per the words of the law? Jesus literally advocated breaking the law to save life.........an animals life! The lamb wasn't even dying just risked dying, they could have saved it the very next day, but Jesus asked, who wouldn't break the law of god to save it THAT very day, just IN CASE the lamb died.
Now with all this context....
Your thoughts?.......
Be your own person, answerable for your own decisions and beliefs, founded in your own research and readings.
-
46
Canadians and Europeans, what do you think of your national health care ?
by RubaDub inwe have been in a battle over health care for so long here in the us regarding public, private, gov't subsidized, obama care, medicare for all, and just about every permutation of the above.. we hear the horror stories here that people wait 20 years for a check-up (ok, bit of an exaggeration), but you get the point.
one side tells us that canadians flock across the border when they are sick and need to see a doctor.
the other side says that is simply not the case.. so tell us, if you live under one of the government systems would you replace it?
-
-
snare&racket
As an ED doctor in the uk NHS I can honestly say that in 11 years of NHS experience, working as a doctor in A&E, ITU, Surgery and Medicine, I have seen only one 'health tourist'. I have seen and treated thousands of patients. It simply isn't true that foreigners are coming to the UK to use our healthcare. The data shows that foreigners visiting the UK are afraid to use the NHS, not really believing it's free at the point of entry.
Jeremy Hunt (previous health minister) set up a pilot scheme to assess likely health visitors and seek to claim costs back if liable. It found so few foreign health tourists, they abandoned the pilot. For every suspected 180 'health tourists' they found just one patient liable for costs. It was more expensive looking for them than finding the one who hadn't paid.
The NHS isn't perfect, but it keeps coming first in international healthcare tables. The biggest issue is waiting times and access because we need more doctors. It costs about £100,000 to train to become a doctor in student fees etc yet wages start at just £22,000 a year and the workload and rota's are heavy. Christmas, Birthdays, Weddings, Holidays... you'd be lucky to see some of them every year. The NHS pay doesn't stand up to business or even the average jobs anymore and the new student fees have put a huge nail in the coffin for medical student uptake.
I am from a non-academic family in a poor area, I appreciate my earnings but supermarkets are frankly paying more than the NHS, the staffing issue is not going to get better. Ironically doctors still want to be doctors despite the 12 years of training and £100,000 costs, but fewer high school achievers are willing to ignore the the lucrative enticement of economics/finance careers.
-
24
The "figurative" heart
by Sour Grapes inabout 25 years ago i gave a talk about how when the bible talks about the heart that it is the literal heart and how the heart and the brain are connected by nerve tissue.
the watchtower even stated that some people who received a heart transplant would take on some of the personality of the donor.then all of a sudden the borg changed and said that when the bible refers to the heart that it is figurative.
then when ever the watchtower referred to the heart it always put the word figurative in front of it.. does anyone know why there was a change in the use of the word heart?
-
-
snare&racket
The heart is a muscular pump, nothing more.
I have somewhat more experience than the average person, having examined, held and dissected a human heart myself.
I was very interested in this too when i left the JW's. The answer lies in ancient egypt. The Egyptians wrongly held the heart as something more than it was.
They believed that the heart, rather than the brain, was the source of human wisdom, as well as emotions, memory, the soul and the personality itself.
Religions and cultures of the region adopted this false belief and it remains to this day for some.
-
17
I finally did it
by paradiseseeker init's done.. during the last month i've been talking with my closest friends about leaving the org and yesterday i finally talked with my parents.. it's been almost 5 months after i said that i would do it, but i think that this extra time has been beneficial.
i've said several times that i would opt for sending a resignation letter, but after talking to my best friends some of them suggested me becoming inactive and blocking my congregation's elders.
i've changed my mind and i will do that because the people that i care the most now know what's going on so they won't be worrying about me not attending the meetings.
-
-
snare&racket
Good work!
Fading is the best approach. Well done for being a rare, smart, brave, moral, ethical human.
-
21
Take a Moment and Think About How Awesome You Are
by Simon init's easy to get bogged down with life and think you're not getting ahead or progressing.
but regardless of where we think things may be going, pretty much everyone who's come through this site is an achiever who's done an amazing thing in one way or another even if they may not think about it.. so think about it!.
you got past and over your programming and indoctrination.
-
-
snare&racket
With so much loss and cost to leaving the WT society, it is difficult ro remain positive at times.
The decades of constant guilt is a potent emotional bedrock, rooted deep in the psyche, difficult to deconstruct and remove. I notice myself and others naturally shift the reason for guilt rather than battle it, because it is so immensely ingrained.
The guilt, sadness and fears are not healthy. We lost so much time to an empty and selfish endeavor that serves good to nobody. It is vital to gain control of our life back as time is our most precious possession, With that time our purpose becomes evident, to be happy, fulfilled and willing to share that happiness with others. To have a family and instill the value or being a good human, seeking and sharing happiness when we can.
Simon, you are so right....... to have even reached this forum is an act of stunning bravery and makes evident a hunger for truth, not comforting lies promising the world 'one day' in exchange for your life now. It is such a successful con, millions, billions fall for it. Few that were raised or coerced into such beliefs escape......
I feel so proud to get to share this forum with such incredible and brave human beings. We all have our differences on politics, faith, grammar (lol), but nobody else on planet earth can understand what we have been through....... I have immense respect for you all.
No matter how much we left behind, we all know we have done the right and moral thing DESPITE the institutional organised loss. The loss was out of our hands. Our loved ones and friends have made the choice to shun, we simply chose the truth.
For every day of survival post your JW exit, a huge well done and deserved celebration.
Once again, thank you Simon for the forum.
Snare
-
10
JW.Org data
by snare&racket into think they have hung the blue and white sign on every building they own in the world and that this was a publicity campaign with the presumed backing of the god of the universe....... it's not going well.. despite the 8.5 million followers, who through design have to visit the site......it isn't even in the top ten..... top fifty..... top one hundred ......top two hundred visited sites globally.. users on average click through 7 pages per visit and don't stay long, averaging about a minute a page.. as for the data on its search over time 'jw.org' is now googled globally at a rate less than 25% of its peak and is usually associated for a search for the daily text.. .
between this and the carts, the only message getting through to real people is 'child abuse' and that woman from king of queens taking an interest!.
i sincerely think we are seeing evidence of what has been anecdotal decline...... waited long enough for it!.
-
-
snare&racket
"I tend to agree with SBF. What is shown in the graph is the number of times jw.org was searched for on google, not the the number of views.."
I added those statistics in also, they are 212th on the internet for daily visits.
The point I was making, was the JW's would have you believe that with God's power, JW.ORG is dominating the internet space and a technological marvel, envied by all....
It simply isn't true.
In my opinion, the JW.ORG has dated them already, there is something quite unfashionable, clinical and unnecessary to name yourself a ".org"
Anyway, the data shows a huge lack of interest despite all their spending and efforts......
-
10
JW.Org data
by snare&racket into think they have hung the blue and white sign on every building they own in the world and that this was a publicity campaign with the presumed backing of the god of the universe....... it's not going well.. despite the 8.5 million followers, who through design have to visit the site......it isn't even in the top ten..... top fifty..... top one hundred ......top two hundred visited sites globally.. users on average click through 7 pages per visit and don't stay long, averaging about a minute a page.. as for the data on its search over time 'jw.org' is now googled globally at a rate less than 25% of its peak and is usually associated for a search for the daily text.. .
between this and the carts, the only message getting through to real people is 'child abuse' and that woman from king of queens taking an interest!.
i sincerely think we are seeing evidence of what has been anecdotal decline...... waited long enough for it!.
-
-
snare&racket
To think they have hung the blue and white sign on every building they own in the world and that this was a publicity campaign with the presumed backing of the god of the universe....... it's not going well.
Despite the 8.5 million followers, who through design have to visit the site......It isn't even in the top ten..... top fifty..... top one hundred ......top two hundred visited sites globally.
Users on average click through 7 pages per visit and don't stay long, averaging about a minute a page.
As for the data on its search over time 'JW.org' is now googled globally at a rate less than 25% of its peak and is usually associated for a search for the daily text.
Between this and the carts, the only message getting through to real people is 'Child Abuse' and that woman from King Of Queens taking an interest!
I sincerely think we are seeing evidence of what has been anecdotal decline...... waited long enough for it!
Snare x