16. 25 when I had suspected things weren't right. 30 when I dove in head first and realized the ugly truth
outsmartthesystem
JoinedPosts by outsmartthesystem
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58
How old were you when...
by agent zero in..when you got baptised, and when you discovered the truth about the truth?.
me: 20 and 27.
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14
Elder's Manual
by outsmartthesystem infirst and foremost....if anyone out there has access to one and trusts me...please pm me.
i am dying to get my hands on a full copy.
but if not....can someone at least confirm.....does it expressly say (somewhere in the manual) that simply not accepting society based doctrine is grounds for disfellowshipping (on charges of apostasy?
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outsmartthesystem
Wannabe......but what if the only people you mention your disagreements to are your wife and kids? Is that still considered to be "spreading" other teachings?
Illuminator - what if you were to answer that question with "I am not sure"?
Lore - I am still relatively new to teh community so I didn't know what confidential tools may or may not get shared with newbies.
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14
Elder's Manual
by outsmartthesystem infirst and foremost....if anyone out there has access to one and trusts me...please pm me.
i am dying to get my hands on a full copy.
but if not....can someone at least confirm.....does it expressly say (somewhere in the manual) that simply not accepting society based doctrine is grounds for disfellowshipping (on charges of apostasy?
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outsmartthesystem
First and foremost....if anyone out there has access to one and trusts me...please PM me. I am dying to get my hands on a full copy. But if not....can someone at least confirm.....does it expressly say (somewhere in the manual) that simply not accepting society based doctrine is grounds for disfellowshipping (on charges of apostasy?) If so what page?
Many of you know I am dealing with a wife that cannot fathom why I don't want to approach the kind and loving elders about my beliefs. Her father has assured her that no one could possibly be disfellowshipped just for 'having disagreements".
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For those of you who are disfellowshipped!
by TimothyT inhow do you respond when you walk past a jw or bump into a close jw friend who broke of contact with you?.
i remember when one brother was disfellowshipped, he himself honoured the arrangement and walked past the brothers with his eyes fixed to the floor.. im going to be disfellowshipped in 8 days, so i just thought id ask you all.. personaly, im going to be kind and cheery as i always tried to be with people.. timmy xxx.
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outsmartthesystem
"The more friendly and normal and cheerful you act the more it will screw with their mind!
Shunning is supposed to strike you with grief, lament and shame.
If you don't fall into that self-conscious behavior or become angry and strike back--what can they do but wonder at the effectiveness of the strategy?"
What's funny about the above comments is that they are theoretically true. But yet....JW's can put a different spin on anything. Take these examples:
1) You pass by elder Jerkski and keep your head down. What does he tell others? "I saw Tim. He wouldn't even make eye contact with me. He feels so ashamed for having left the organization."
2) You pass by elder Jerkski and warmly say hello to him. What does he tell others? " I saw Tim. He had the audacity to brazenly try to talk to me. I ignored him of course. This goes to show how quickly and how deep he has fallen into Satan's grasp."
With witnesses either way it is a win for them. Just like anything else. If # of publishers increases.....God is blessing us! Yay! If # of publishers decreases.....the love of the greater number is cooling off. The end must be near. Yay!
They will always find a way to spin it in their favor
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125
Stupid suggestion from Study Conductor
by roxanesophia inhi everyone, first i just want to say if it wasn't this forum, i'd be baptized!
i haven't managed to successfully end my studies with a zealous jw.
she uses everything against me to brainwash me into believing i need the org.
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outsmartthesystem
This certainly isnt' meant to be insulting.....but honestly....if you haven't had the nerve to firmly end your bible study with her yet.....how do you really think you'll do AT a motel....surrounded by JW's urging you to go with them to the convention?
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125
Stupid suggestion from Study Conductor
by roxanesophia inhi everyone, first i just want to say if it wasn't this forum, i'd be baptized!
i haven't managed to successfully end my studies with a zealous jw.
she uses everything against me to brainwash me into believing i need the org.
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outsmartthesystem
I agree with Slidin Fast. Yes I believe she truly does care for you. But she is brainwashed! She truly believes you are on the path to destruction and she is trying to get you into the organization so you'll be saved. She believes that is the only way to save you. So yes....I think she DOES care about you and will do anything to get you to see things her way. The point I am making though....is that it does not matter whether she likes you or not. What matters is ......is that religion really the truth? It doesn't matter if she cares about you or how nice she is to you. Are JWs the one and only true religion in the world? If not then everything else is window dressing.
Look. I once knew a man that seemed like the sweetest guy ever. Nice. Helpful. Outgoing. But then I learned that he was also a white supremacist. Like I said....was he nice? Yes. But that doesn't mean his views were right. Should I change my views to match his just because he and his friends are nice to me? Is that the RIGHT thing to do? If you don't agree with the JW's lying about their history and covering over their failed prophecies then be sure not to fall for their "love" trap. Remember, niceness is often nothing more than a mask that hides many other serious flaws.
Don't go to the motel with her. That is step 1 of a 2 step process to get you to the full 3 days of the convention. Yes she'll tell you....."oh you can just stay at the motel". But do you really think it will end there? Do you really think she'll let that happen? Once you get to the motel....she'll start using the assumptive approach. She'll say something like "WHEN WE get to the convention site tomorrow....." This may not seem like a big deal.....but psychologically she is already preparing your mind to make the decision to go with her in the morning. And when she gets to the motel.....she'll know a ton of other people there. She'll plant the seed into their heads that she's convinced you to go to the motel but not the convention. In JW land that triggers a reaction amongst everyone else like honeybees protecting their hive. They will all take the hint and when given the opportunity....bombard you with "love" and invitations to go to the convention the next day. Remember....the more people that flock to you....the harder it will be for you to say no. They know this and they are counting on this. And they'll word it in such a way that it will be difficult foryou to decline. They won't say "so...are you going tomorrow or not?" They'll say....."hey your study asked if you guys could ride in our SUV to the convention tomorrow. I think that sounds great! We'll leave at 7:30 and go to Bob Evans for breakfast. I can't wait to see you in the morning!" See what I mean? This approach makes it very difficult for someone in your position to say no without sounding like a biaaatch.
DO NOT GO TO THE MOTEL
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on the subject of elders reading this message board
by cptkirk ini'm still laughing to myself thinking about elders/bethelites reading this messageboard.
yet another contradiction to throw in the basket.
didn't they always say how dangerous it is to read anything that contradicts the teachings of the wts?
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outsmartthesystem
"if elders come here to finger someone - how do they rationalize this? it's a huge break in logic. and it tells me they care about one thing, power/control. not dogma."
The same way they rationalize anything else. The organization must be protected. They rationalize lying to authorities in order to protect the organization from legal trouble. They rationalize using the term "past truth" instead of wrong teachign or false prophecy in order to protect the organization from accusations of being wrong.
I truly don't believe that elders are here right now trying to finger someone. UNLESS they have specific reason to be. Let's say Joe suddenly stops going to meetings. Joe doesn't want the elders to come over to his house to "encourage" him. Joe's family and close friends are also "less active" at the kingdom hall....yet they've remained close with Joe. Some of them have asked a few unnerving questions about the history of the society to the elders. This is a big red flag and it all gets traced back to Joe. The elders don't know what is going on but they know Joe is behind it. They may go to one of Joe's friends that asked an unnerving question and grill him endlessly. Feeling indimidated, Joe's friend spills the beans that Joe found out true information about the society on some site called JWN. Then whether it is the elders themselves...or someone from Bethel.....at THAT point.....I would not be surprised if SOMEONE started looking on the JWN site to see if they can dig up some dirt on Joe. It is still my belief that most elders do want to help Joe "readjust his thinking". But if Joe doesn't want to be "readjusted", and the elders fear that Joe's family and friends within the congregation may be influenced by him then they will do whatever it is they have to do to disfellowship Joe. Each day that goes by is another day Joe could reach someone else. At that point....they will show up at his house unannounced to "talk" with Joe. They will search the JWN website for clues as to his identity on that site. And they will grill his friends and family until they have enough "evidence" to convict him of apostasy.
Then they will DF Joe. All the true information about the society and their history and failed prophecies that he has uncovered is now worthless because his friends and family are not allowed to speak to him. If they do....they will be DF'd. Since Joe's friends all have family that are involved in the cult......none of them will risk talking to Joe for fear that their lives will be ripped apart too. At that point....the elders woudl have done their jobs. They eliminated the threat and protected the mother ship
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on the subject of elders reading this message board
by cptkirk ini'm still laughing to myself thinking about elders/bethelites reading this messageboard.
yet another contradiction to throw in the basket.
didn't they always say how dangerous it is to read anything that contradicts the teachings of the wts?
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outsmartthesystem
Agree again NRFG! That is classic fear and cult mind control! It controlled both you and I to the point where even when we detached ourselves from the borg and wanted to know the truth.....we still felt guilty initially when we came to this website!
I would disagree Cpt. I think that most elders do indeed believe everything. They are captive to the concept. So even if there is a teaching that doesn't make sense......they force themselves to accept it because 1) when greater light is shed on the matter....perhaps they'll understand better and 2) this HAS to be God's organization.
Overall....I think the vast majority do believe EVERYTHING. Then there are some that may wonder about a thing or two....but anything they wonder about they just accept that they are imperfect and should not challenge the authenticity of the spiritual food they receive. Then there are some who have doubts but have spent far too long in the borg to call it quits. Cognitive dissonance takes over and their minds simply will not allow themselves to question anything. These are the elders that intrigue me the most. I call it Roger Clemens syndrome. I believe whole heartedly that he did steroids. So does everyone else including his family and his teammates. Yet he denies it. Do I think he is lying? Strangely enough....no. I believe he has managed to truly convince himself that he is innocent. And so it goes with some elders. They've managed to convince themselves that their doubts are illegitimate because giving up on a hope and a life that they've poured their heart and soul into for so many years is just too painful to comprehend. And then of course there are a few elders that think it is all BS and are perusing this message board right now.
I think that only the elders that have doubts that also want satisfying answers are on this board. All the rest heed the instructions from the mother ship.
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Absolutely!
by IMHO inwhy is everyone using the word "absolutely" these days, in answer to every other question..
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outsmartthesystem
Yes....I prefer the society's version....EVIDENTLY this means blah blah blah.
Then 20 years later when we change our minds.....it will be realized that it wasn't so evident after all
Evidently = pure guess
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41
How did you tell your mate that .....
by stuckinamovement inyou no longer believed that the watchtower organization was the truth, and that you were no longer going to go to the meetings or service?.
and a followup question... what was the response?.
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outsmartthesystem
"This switching of Peters words from the person of Jesus Christ to the organization of the Watchtower Society without anyone noticing the switch, testifies to how deeply captive everyone is locked into the concept holding them captive"
And therein lies the problem. Witnesses are SO captive that they reason "you can only come to Christ THROUGH the organization....therefore it makes perfect sense!"