Social pressure in the U.S. drives children of atheists away from atheism? I only have my personal experience, of course, but since I left the JWs I have never felt the slightest pressure to become religious from any person I ever met. In the last decade, I wonder if anyone has a personal experience where they felt like there was social pressure placed on them to convert away from atheism.
Posts by Sulla
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173Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
Two quick observations, cofty. First, your explanation for the very low retention rates is basically bad catechesis by atheist parents and a suggestion that some significant number of those who are categorized as atheists in the Pew study have categorized theselves improperly. I don't much like either of those explanations.
In the second case, Pew seems to have been pretty careful about this study, which goes back several years. Categories of self-selection don't seem to have limited choice very much -- we see the option for "nothing in particular," for example. Moreover, whatever problems might exist with weakly-attached atheists messing with the numbers must also apply to lots of other religious groups: there are very many weakly-attached Catholics.
The point about bad atheist catechesis is interesting, and I have seen in offered on this thread before. What I would suggest is that even good atheist catechesis is bad atheist catechesis. By that is just mean the central claims of atheism are a little, uh, wibble?
For example, you keep making this point: " Your need for a greater reality does not make it so - its just your story that helps you deal with life." True, but what you don't seem to grasp is that my need ofr greater reality also doesn't make it untrue. I may need to believe Spain have won the Euro Cup -- that doesn't make it either true or else false, it has no bearing on the fact. That makes a significant number of atheist statements about the matter entirely beside the point. Theists are bad people, theists merely need a crutch to face reality, theists aren't rational thinkers, etc. All of those things may be true, but none of them have any bearing on the question of the existence of God.
So why does a critical thinker like you keep bringing them up?
I think this points to another weakness in the atheist approach, one that becomes more obvious to those who were raised atheists instead of those who converted to the cause.
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Trinity Brochure
by flamegrilled inhas anybody heard an official reason that the trinity brochure is deceased?.
the gb have been released basically new versions of old brochures with wild abandon, and yet the trinity brochure which has absolutely no equivalent is no longer in print.. why?.
we all know there were dodgy references/quotations therein, but you would think by now the gb would have put some effort into a viable replacement if it were posssible.. nobody seems to be making too much of this as far as i can see.. the trinity brochure was very naughty.
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Sulla
designs, I don't think Arius was a bishop.
I think the meta-problem with the brochure is that there is not a single true statement in the entire thing. The development of the doctrine was really convoluted and there are plenty of people who think Arius was the conservative in the argument, but the JW arguments are simply too exotic to be taken seriously. Add to that the ease with which the references can be shown to be fraudulent, and you have a genuine problem. The thing is a net loser. If it is available, it invites examination.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
Arrogant prick.
Heh. And to think I said you would reply with a single-sentence grunt, cofty. I guess it's my turn: cofty, you're a useless little cocksucker.
But, you make some interesting points later.
We both avoid dwelling on the fact that it will soon be over and ultimately it was " Vanity of vanities ". The difference is that I'm ok with that, I know I will die and return to non-existence. That doesn't stop me enjoying life and finding meaning in it, however transitory. You feel a need to pretend that there is more to life; an ultimate, perfect reality of which this is just a reflection.
I think that the point I am making is that the atheist position is that there really isn't any meaning in anything. You can certainly enjoy life and build things that will last some time and have children and grandchildren and so on. And those things are legitimately enjoyable. But they don't have meaning because nothing has meaning in this universe. We don't have a purpose that is different from the purpose of any other primate.
That's not necessarily a bad thing -- if reality is precisely as you say, then it is the only right thing. But -- getting back to the theme of this thread -- I think a great many people who are raised in atheist households find that your viewpoint is at odds with the human experience which they feel points in a different direction.
Your need for a greater reality does not make it so - its just your story that helps you deal with life. So be it, but don't get smug about your comforting delusions.
I don't think I suggested my need for a greater reality makes it so. What I suggested is that humanity has always perceived a greater end for itself than merely what we see. This search for larger meaning -- and the rejection of greater meaning that atheism necessarily implies -- generally leads people who are raised in atheist homes to not be atheist after a while. Not getting smug, simply pointing out a real weakness of the atheist proposal: it is far more compelling among those who convert to it than those who are raised in it.
Athiesm to me is just one invetiable aspect of critical thinking.
I suspect it is this that explains the survey. Many of those who later became religious were probably brought up by intelletually lazy parents whose atheism owed more to apathy than to reason.
Does it seem odd to you that critical thinkers are inevitably atheists yet the overwhelming majority of them are also intellectually lazy and motivated by apathy instead of reason? That seems odd to me.
No need to be such a prick Sulla.
There is some need, cofty.
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Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
The ulimate meaning of life was different for an ancient Egyptian Ra worshiper than it is for a modern day Southern Baptist and either would struggle to derive additional meaning outside of the confines of their respective dogma.
Perhaps they would struggle for this meaning and you are right that the ultimate meaning for these groups would be different. But would you agree that the central atheist assertion is that the attempt to find meaning is pointless? There is no connection with the rest of the universe, with the past, with being itself, with Beauty, etc., etc., so attempts to find it are wasted?
I think you agree, since you suggest that meaning is a human construct. Lots of people think that way, but lots of other people cringe at the idea of a personal truth: "My truth is _____." Indeed; your truth, my truth, his meaning, her meaning, whatever. We can talk this way, but atheists know it is all a false conversation: there ain't no truth or meaning, yours or mine.
I suspect that is why more people claim something like "no afiliation" or "agnostic" than "atheist." Plenty of people don't feel a connection with God or dislike religion or don't care much one way or the other. But atheism has a lot of grim implications that strike people as conflicting with what they take to be the human experience.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
I know this idea pisses you off, cofty, but it isn't clear why it should. Look, atheists reject the concept of any ultimate meaning, right? Of course right, that's the whole point of atheism, as you know.
Now, you can reject the idea that there is such a thing as meaning to, well, to anything in the universe. But my view is that the comprehensive rejection of meaning is very much against the human experience. And, returning to the quaint idea that this thread had a theme, it is precisely this extremely grim and anti-human(!) worldview that, I suggest, is not very robust across generations.
Sufering, love, injustice... none of that has any meaning, good or bad. Turns out, lots of people find it impossible to have a life that matters when nothing matters, and so they reject the atheist faith of their parents. Converts to atheism have a different set of motivations -- in a way quite similar to other low-retention religions, I suppose.
And that, cofty, is my hypothesis for why the retention rates for atheists are so low. Your single-sentence grunt of a reply is eagerly awaited.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
Life is wonderful, mysterious and beautiful. I wonder about life the unviverse and everything constantly.
You use these terms in the popular sense. By that, I simply mean that you call something beautiful without asserting that things so described are in any way a reflection of ultimate Beauty (to borrow a Platonic concept). A good atheist rejects the idea of any ultimate good, which implies a rejection of these related, and charmingly capitalized, terms: Truth, Beauty, Justice, Love, etc.
You'd agree with me, cofty, about this. And that is what I mean. I certainly didn't mean to say you don't think pretty sunsets are pretty.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
Perhaps I am quite late to the party. But I suspect that atheism has such low retention rates because it is, itself, a form of fundamentalism. By which I simply mean that it relies on several unarticulated and dubious assumptions and that it reduces the inexpressible mystery of life to a series of rote formulae. I think that the standard answers of either form leave subsequent generations lass convinced than their converted parents and, because these children have no self-image to confirm, they leave it the way they leave the JWs.
I think that the religious impulse is something like a natural response to life, its mystery and beauty. And I have the feeling that many atheists are attempting to reject those elements in an effort to control our uncontrollable lives. By rejecting mystery, though, an atheist rejects life, really. Viewed this way, it is hardly a surprise that children of atheists must find that they reject it: it is difficult to live so grimly and so at odds with humanity.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
Not sure I'm seeing much by way of an hypothesis here. Seriously, how can it be that parents who have chosen the super-rationalist, evidence-based rationality, etc., etc., etc., fail to convey a simple, scientific, rationalist, etc., etc., approach to the universe on to their children?
So, here is an hypothesis: there is a problem with the assumptions in the question I just asked.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
Yes, Gerogetown is known for being a university with very weak academic standards. So is Pew, for that matter.
But seriously.
What sort of hypotheses do we have for this -- I am actualy quite surprised to see it is so low?