Sulla

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Posts by Sulla

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  36

  What's so mysterious about "generation" (genea) in Matthew?

  by kepler in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  thanks to a number of notices about a website titled www.jwfacts.com, i took a quick tour and found some very informative pages and charts about the organization's positions and history.

  thanks also to a number of posters for their reminders.

  i can't summarize the whole site in a topic, but it did include a history of the interpretation of the phrase "this generation", appearing in matthew 24:34.. "truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.".

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  Sulla

  There are variations in this text from extant Hebrew versions beyond the scope of this discussion, but translators to Greek had to decide when to use the term "genea" and how. Maybe there is a clue there.

  kepler, I think the point is that there are no clues and that you should stop looking for them. The point of the first chapter of Matthew is to break up the important people in the Jewish religious history into symmetric groups of 2x7 generations: the generation being defined as sons and fathers. There is no implication of years, and to try to figure out how many years he might have been talking about per generation is to entirely miss the point.

  If he was not writing from Babylon, it was probably Rome. But why would he call Rome Babylon if he didn't see a resemblance? What was the resemblance?

  Well, the resemblance would be that Rome was acting to oppress the chosen of God the way Babylon was. So, in the Jewish/Christian context, the similarity is pretty obvious, right?

  Also, the "this generation" passage appears in all three synoptic Gospels, but there are significant differences in the overall accounts surrounding that discussion. So, for arguments about context for "generation" in Matthew: do they apply as well in Mark and Luke?

  ok. I don't think you are listening.
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  36

  What's so mysterious about "generation" (genea) in Matthew?

  by kepler in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  thanks to a number of notices about a website titled www.jwfacts.com, i took a quick tour and found some very informative pages and charts about the organization's positions and history.

  thanks also to a number of posters for their reminders.

  i can't summarize the whole site in a topic, but it did include a history of the interpretation of the phrase "this generation", appearing in matthew 24:34.. "truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.".

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  Sulla

  The thing I notice, kepler, about the statement is its absurdity. 1,000 people before me on this board have pointed out the stupidity the concept that my grandfather and I are of the same generation. Unless you wanted to describe us both as the "Clinton" generation, and yet even this simply points out how preposterous the whole idea is. And yet I have engaged JWs who defend this concept with vigor.

  I'm thinking that these JWs defend this teaching because the thing they believe in is 1919, which is to say: they believe the JWs are the re-established one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. In something like a bizzarro-world papal infalibility doctrine, JWs think the church can teach gravely mistaken things about faith and morals and that the faithful are required to believe even these errors. Still, the teaching may have surpassed the "torture stake" teaching as the most gratuitous of all the JW doctrines.

  I doubt that there is any need to work through St. Matthew's gospel to evaluate it, though.
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  70

  How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

  by booker-t in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

  especially hellfire.

  i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

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  Sulla

  designs, it isn't nice to pick on Bowman and Hoffstetter. They have a an agenda, so it isn't the same thing. Lotta Evangelicals are like that.
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  36

  What's so mysterious about "generation" (genea) in Matthew?

  by kepler in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  thanks to a number of notices about a website titled www.jwfacts.com, i took a quick tour and found some very informative pages and charts about the organization's positions and history.

  thanks also to a number of posters for their reminders.

  i can't summarize the whole site in a topic, but it did include a history of the interpretation of the phrase "this generation", appearing in matthew 24:34.. "truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.".

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  Sulla

  Are you suggesting, OldGenerationDude, that the JWs would like to jettison the linkage between 1914 and the timing of the End? The idea being to keep the JW ecclesiology (the one true Church was re-established in 1919) and the emphasis on the nearness of the End without the troublesome limits on the timing of it?

  In your view, does this seem like something that can be done? I've always thought that the idea that JWs were getting close to some upper bound on the time left (40 years seems like a reasonable length for a generation, 1975 is good timing for all this to end, the 1914 people are getting long in the tooth, etc) has always been the critical factor in JW motivation, even if the Governing Body thinks that 1919 is the key factor.
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  70

  How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

  by booker-t in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

  especially hellfire.

  i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

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  Sulla

  The short answer is, yes, I accept all three. The longer answer is that we are probably talking about very different concepts when we use these terms.

  if it is possible to abstract from the more fantastic depictions of, say, Bosch and interpret these as true in the same way, say, Picasso's portrait of Dora Maar is true then we can begin to think of what is meant by Hell.

  What we find is that Hell is primarly the complete choice against God, the one who is and who is love. If you accept that human beings are things that find their true purpose in love and in being, then the choice against these things is profoundly mutilated. Like a lion that chooses not to hunt. Such a person has chosen not to have a complete existence.

  You can't be right this way. This is Hell. I believe that this choice exists and that, therefore, the state exists. It might as well be depicted by Bosch or scenes from the movie "Jacob's Ladder," or any number of ways because the truth of it can be captured that way.

  If you believe in choice and you believe in God, then you believe in Hell.
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  24

  Why the GB secretly hates and fears the gospel above ALL else!

  by Fernando in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

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  Sulla

  OldGenerationDude is correct. Again. I'd be interested to see Fernando and others interact with those comments.
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  9

  Your warm invitation to join my new religion called "The Church of Conscience"!

  by yadda yadda 2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have started a new religion and this is your personal invitation to join it.

  i got the idea from romans 2:14-15:.

  "for whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves.

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  Sulla

  What would we be worshipping in this church of yours? Ah, of course: ourselves. Fortunately, I already have such an outsized regard for myself that this should work really, really well.
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  24

  German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault

  by mind blown in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wonder how jw germans get around the blood/issue doctrine?.

  http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision-172728400.html.

  circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a german court ruled tuesday in a landmark decision that the jewish community said trampled on parents' religious rights.. the regional court in cologne, western germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed thefundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.. "the religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to becircumcised," the court added.. the case was brought against a doctor in cologne who had circumcised a four-year-old muslim boy on his parents' wishes.. a few days after the operation, his parents took him to hospital as he was bleeding heavily.

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  Sulla

  Just because some people who are against circumcision are anti-semites it doesnt mean they all are.

  True, Deist, but significant portions of the US movement seem to live in some very fetid swamps. It's an issue.

  Presumably people should have the right to conduct female cirumcision as well, or tattoo the name of their god on the kids arse. Adults can do what they like. Children should not have things forced upon them that will permanently scar them - physically or mentally. Why would you want to circumcise your sons anyway?

  Well, were I a Jew, I would do so because it has been the rite of initiation into my people for 4,000 years or so and carries profound historical, cultural, and religious significance. It's just a foreskin, the practice didn't seem to hurt the Egyptians much.

  As for the difference between circumcision and female genital mutilation, well. A circumcised penis works just fine, a woman whose clitoris has been excised cannot function sexually. The effect and intent are to maim. Circumcision is hardly more debilitating than pierced ears. If some group had a ancient and central tradition of piercing ears of infants, have at it. Even now, Native communities still engage in robust rites of passage that the young must pass, and there are other examples as well. So, this seems like a genuine overreach.
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  24

  German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault

  by mind blown in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  wonder how jw germans get around the blood/issue doctrine?.

  http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision-172728400.html.

  circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a german court ruled tuesday in a landmark decision that the jewish community said trampled on parents' religious rights.. the regional court in cologne, western germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed thefundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.. "the religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to becircumcised," the court added.. the case was brought against a doctor in cologne who had circumcised a four-year-old muslim boy on his parents' wishes.. a few days after the operation, his parents took him to hospital as he was bleeding heavily.

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  Sulla

  http://blog.sfgate.com/nov05election/2011/06/03/literature-for-sfs-anti-circumcision-measure-stars-monster-rabbis-and-blonde-superheroes/

  Hmmm.
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  165

  Your most DISTURBING WATCHTOWER Bethel/Branch experience? (No full names please)

  by Balaamsass in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  ok.. you 70 plus bethelite members.... this is your chance to share stories!

  inquiring minds want to know !no full names please..follow t.o.s.

  to avoid borg libel lawsuits).. i will start the ball rolling with week one.

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  Sulla

  How many 19 yr olds are in danger of enlarged prostates?

  You got that right, LittleMac. When I got told to go get the physical, the guy running the line offered me some phlegmatic advice, "Be sure to wash your anus."

  Sulla: "Huh?"

  Guy: "Be sure your anus is clean."

  Sulla: "Why?"

  Guy: {shrug}

  Good times. I also had a roommate a very kind, very stupid guy. I had gotten into a little trouble for writing signs and posting them on the bindery line; un-clever stuff like, "Line XX: workers' paradise," and so on. Anyhow, my roommate abruptly stopped sleeping in the room and working out with me in the weightroom. Wouldn't talk to me at all: he'd show up at 5:30 to grab some clothes and then leave.

  Finally, I cornered him and asked what the problem was. He had heard I was in trouble for making signs and had interpreted this to mean I was, like, inscribing pentagrams on the factory floor. Turns out, he was quite concerned about the occult and didn't want to take any risks.