Posts by Sulla

Joey Jo-Jo: Sulla I am having a hard time understanding the points you are making, for me to understand you a bit better how would you describe cognitive dissonance in your own words?

I am currently studying psychology and am heavily involved in studies regarding social psychology. Could you please show we how you came to the conclusion that dissonance is not a cognitive construct?

Don't know that I've come to that conclusion. The first thing I asked on this thread was for a definition of cognitive dissonance beyond the popular one of holding two conflicting beliefs at once. I've asked lots of question in my posts on this subject; if you have some academic insight into this matter, it would be helpful if you'd share it.

Zidd: Sulla, I can see clearly that you've never made a detailed comparison of the bible's "scientific" claims with actual scientific discoveries and studies...

{sigh}. Were the bible a scientific text, this criticism might begin to make some sense. While you are at it, have you ever bothered to compare the scientific claims in the Iliad with current science? Very eye-opening...

Sheesh.

Twitch: The way I see it, the believing jw doesn't have CG, just denial or wishful thinking with blinders on. There aren't multiple conflicting truths, only one. CG doesn't really kick in until one questions and doubts, when what is believed is at odds with what one sees, feels or experiences. Change is constant, human nature is not static. When an xjw finds a replacement worldview they're comfortable with, CG in this repect is greatly diminished, if not gone altogether. One has been freed to choose what to believe and once settled, truth has become less absolute and more personal.

I think I agree with you, Twitch. At least the first part.

33

Are we Ex JW's just as cognitively dissonant as we were before?

by chapstick in

jw
friends

challenge me on this.

challenge yourself on this.

can you, personally, handle the truth?.

Sulla

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Sulla. A viewpoint you've reiterated many times on this discussion board.

To not much effect, I think.

My question is, what does it matter to you, really?

Well, I think a central task of a board like this one is to help xJWs move on from JW-ism to live a better life; JW-ism being pernicious in a great many ways. So, topics like education keep coming up here... topics like atheism, etc. You can't very well move forward without understanding what happened, it seems to me.

But that reflection doesn't happen very often, it seems to me. That can't be good. A woman who is in an abusive relationship may find it within herself, finally, to leave it much to her benefit. But if she doesn't understand how it happened and, crucially, how to identify what she did to place herself in an abusive relationship then she is quite likely to make the same dangerous choice again. She is genuinely a victim, of course, and it is right and just to review all the ways in which her partner is an ass. But there is hardly a shortage of abusive men out there and, if she doesn't do the hard self-analysis, she puts herself in danger again.

I think the metaphor is apt. Many people here selected JW-ism on their own. It should be obvious that the great majority of people are able to avoid this sort of disasterous decision, so how should we think about the error? How do we avoid it again? One response seems to be an aggressive and rather obnoxious atheism -- this sort of substitute God of scientism, which strikes me as a cringing response to the personal catastrophe we have all been through.

"Know thyself," we are advised, on good authority. This is part of that effort, I guess.

Do you hold a better opinion of those that choose a different faith than yours after exiting?

Not sure what you mean. I do have a general suspicion that the shallow atheism lots of xJWs fall in to is an unreflective response to JW-ism. That's because, as I have said before, atheism is really close to JW-ism; certainly JWs reject all the Christian teachings in favor of a pretty absurd, ersatz religion. You could argue that Catholicism is something like the opposite of JW-ism and that my response is simply a thoroughgoing rejection of the JWs than most other responses. That's possible. But at least it would represent a universal rejection of the entire JW approach to, well, everything.

So, if Jws have cognitive dissonance, it is worth asking whether xJWs also have it. But what if they don't have cognitive dissonance, and it is xJWs who are more likely to display it? It seems to me these are questions worth asking.

33

Are we Ex JW's just as cognitively dissonant as we were before?

by chapstick in

jw
friends

challenge me on this.

challenge yourself on this.

can you, personally, handle the truth?.

Sulla

Ok, but I wonder Phiz, whether your response isn't just another form of dissonance or self-image preservation or another pose. No offense.

But I see this a lot among xJWs: this idea that having once been hoodwinked by the JWs, the proper solution is to doubt absolutely everything. Thus, the atheism; thus, the leftism; thus, the unhinged anti-Christian viewpoint (not on this thread, necessarily). It's this cynicism of disillusioned idealists, in my opinion. I suspect a lot of xJWs haven't really thought through what happened to them and what the complete belief in that lie that is JW-ism means, going forward.

85

Leolaia: Where is your story?

by pirata in

jw
friends

i looked through your posts but couldn't find your life story.

have you written it?.

i would love to read your progression from/through jw to avid scholar :).

Sulla

Yeah, I'll just chime in: when Leolaia says it, it done been said.

33

Are we Ex JW's just as cognitively dissonant as we were before?

by chapstick in

jw
friends

challenge me on this.

challenge yourself on this.

can you, personally, handle the truth?.

Sulla

What do we mean by "cognitive dissonance," in this context? Are we talking about the idea that JWs both believe and dis-believe in the nearness of the End? Or are we talking about the tendency to reach an already-known conclusion (stick with the JWs) even in the face of what should be strong evidence the other way? Both, I guess.

But we suppose that JWs are making some sort of choice that does not correspond with reality, I guess; that there is something ultimately untrue about their conclusions from a viewpoint internal to the person. They aren't really convinced so much as they are simply rationalizing a choice.

But isn't it true that the classic example of cognitive dissonance -- the failed prophecy of the UFO cult -- is actually quite unlike the JWs failures? The UFO cult claimed they were spared in order to spread the word. But the JWs haven't done that sort of thing with their failures, it seems to me.

By that, I simply mean 1975 was a failure and the JWs admit it was a failure. They minimize, ex post, the strength of their claim and shift the blame for the personal costs to others, for sure, but they don't say that 1975 was correct and the world was spared for some other reason.

I feel like something similar is going on with the "generation" teaching. I think most engaged JWs would admit (not to us) that the teaching that they held for a long time is simply mistaken and that they really don't know what they think now and that they are working it out.

I guess my point is just that it seems to me cognitive dissonance might not have the explanatory power we thought it did when it comes to the JWs. That might be a minority viewpoint here and I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways, but that's my take.

45

Can someone recommend me a history book?

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

not on a specific subject, just in general.

history is my favourite subject and i'd like to maybe try something i wouldn't normally pick up.

has anyone read any really good history books recently they would recommend?.

Sulla

The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt, Toby Wilkinson. Really interesting history of a people everyone thinks they know. Plus, the sheer length of time Egypt really mattered -- and has a history -- is amazing. I'm not really in to Egypt normally, but this book changed that.

61

The Decline of Elders and Ministerial Servants

by Londo111 in

i seem to remember somebody saying that since the 90's the number of elders has declined from 90000 to 60000. does anybody have any hard figures regarding this?.

the organization is desperate for "qualified" men.

but their standards are much too high, especially the monthly field service hour requirements tagged on to endless meetings and congregational busywork.

Sulla

Interesting to observe that the number of Elders is decreasing while the number of Anointed is increasing. That seems a little odd.

45

Feel the Goddamned Love

by AK - Jeff in

my mil of 38 years - who has not spoken to me for the 9 years since i left her cult - died on sunday.. today, as a favor to my sil who has spoken to me very rarely, for the same reasons, over the same period of time, i was moving some personal items to her home from the nursing home.

in this instance i guess it is ok to speak with me - if i have a strong back and a conveyance that aids her needs at the moment.. anyway, in the parking lot of the apartment complex where she lives, while we are moving in those items, guess who shows up?

five or six of my old 'best friends'.

Sulla

As a side note, the lyric to "The Lion King" song, "Can You Feel the Love Tonight," goes:

L'amour brille sous les etoiles (love sparkles under the stars). Thought you'd like to know.

40

Lies Continue On New JW.org Sited . How Many Can You Spot?

by BlindersOff1 in

do you shun former members of your religion?.

those who were baptized as jehovah's witnesses but no longer preach to others, perhaps even drifting away from association with fellow believers, are not shunned.

in fact, we reach out to them and try to rekindle their spiritual interest.. .

Sulla

Spotting lies there is a tough exercise. Try to find tiny little bits of truth, instead. It's like an Easter egg hunt! But, like, the world's toughest Easter egg hunt!