i'm a born in, born in the 1980s and old enough to remember studying beefy (albeit full of crap) material like the the evolution book and revelation book (which we studied over and over and over and over).
books and brochures were wordy and chock full of legalistic language explaining away teachings and policies, some explanations slightly above the iq of the average person.. watchtower studies were longer (30 paragraphs sometimes), talks were longer and thus meetings were longer, pioneering was harder (70 hours if i remember correctly), assemblies and conventions were longer, and there were intricate food provisions to feed thousands of people (for a cost of course).. the average jw could recite watchtower propaganda for hours to indoctrinate others or defend their faith.
jws were interested in having meaty discussions at the door and challenging even pastors on doctrinal points.. i know this has been said many times, but the organization has gone through a massive dumbing down.. i can't figure out if it's due to the oblivious nature of the current governing body, a premeditated attempt by them at dumbing down the organization, or just the effects of life becoming easier around the globe due to reliance on technology.. i can only speak on my era, and i know that from the early 90s until around 2004 the organization was allot more doctrine savy.. over the past decade or so i'd say the collective iq of the followers has moved from 105 to 85.. indoctrination and blind belief has allot to do with being prone to be emotionally manipulated, but thinking ability has a say in that too.. social media is a decent gauge of how and what the average person within a certain demographic is thinking, and doing a simple hashtag search on twitter, instagram, or facebook reveals allot about how the current generation of young jws (15-28 or thereabout) are thinking.. many have become self obsessed, internet obsessed, hubris filled and passive, i can see an even bigger decline in growth over the next 5 years.. take a look:.
I agree with JW07 and Magnum.
I have witnessed to many priests and ministers. Mostly over the trinity or hellfire. Its been YEARS since anyone at the door wanted to talk about anything like that.
The householders dont have the religious knowledge they used to.
Jws dont either.
I have begun to think the Society lost the good writers. Like Barbara Anderson for instance. There seems to be a lot of copy/paste in the newer literature. I dont think they have any writers who can manufacture anything.
So basically they do nothing.
Well that is really telling.
for a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
Remember, even Jesus Christ of the bible ask/needed funding/donations.
Thats a very good point Theredeemer.
I seem to sound negative but I honestly dont feel that way inside.
Im just not going to leap out of the boat (JWs) and grab the first thing that floats.
I dont need a hero. I dont need a place to put my trust. I just need to know what is really true.
Everything has its drawbacks. Even science.
I am nowhere near ready to place my trust in science until I see a compelling reason.
So far, every reason I see FOR it- an equal and opposite reason could be made against it.
Thats ok. Im going to keep reading.
I just really want to know, thats all.
for a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
Thats ok with me OnTheWayOut.
it was good enough to read twice!
for a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
I am assuming you meant me even though you didnt say so Theredeemer...
and no, I dont care to!
I was in fact, willing to edit my post and change the word "facts" to the word "thoughts".
but I was too late to edit.
Darn.
I grew up on a university campus. Had a parent who worked In the biology department.
I remember all that went on.
So no. No facts (and no arguement). I just remember how everything depended on funding.
Its interesting who does the funding.
Im sorry for sounding so pompous.
for a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.
as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.
for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!
I am always amazed at how readily some trust science.
There is very little "science" that gets pursued or published outside the world of academia.
Scientists devote their life to a subject that is dependant on grants and universities in order for them to research.
The beast must be fed.
The politics and jockeying for position that go on behind the scenes is incredible.
There are very few scientists who can even operate outside this very controlled ($$$) world.
So there are some facts. I like facts.
i just saw it last night.. did anyone see it?.
i gave it 2 stars.
kinda boring and pretty much a fantasy!.
If you view it just as a Hollywood movie - it was "ok".
If you wanted any shred of historical accuracy or even for the story to make sense (!) then it was a letdown.
I didnt expect muich.
I wasnt disappointed.
in numbers 31 we read the following:.
jehovah then told moses:2 take vengeance for the israelites on the midianites.
afterward you will be gathered to your people.3 so moses spoke to the people, saying: equip men from among you for battle against midian and to execute jehovahs vengeance on midian.4 you should send 1,000 of each tribe of all the tribes of israel into the army............ 7 they waged war against midian, just as jehovah had commanded moses, and they killed every male.8 along with the others slain, they killed the kings of midian, namely, evi, rekem, zur, hur, and reba, the five kings of midian.
Thanks for adding to a discussion Oppostate.
Your post jarred an old memory in me about the whole connection to the Canaanite thing.
I guess about 15 years ago I was researching that...it seems (I am qualifying this statement so I wont get leapt on for not being stunningly correct)
it seems, that I remember reading the Canaanites had connections/roots going back to Noah's sons and the way that played out geographically as well as how they were viewed. By viewed I mean in the Bibles context of whether they had worship that was acceptable to God or not.
I don't remember all the details this long after however.
If anyone can educate me on that I would appreciate it.
On a different note,
War involves atrocity. People die. Its not pleasant. Most of us today are enjoying a civil life based on those wars having been fought.
Again. how do you judge the success of a war?
The Peloponnesian War, the genocide of the Khmer Rouge, or to bring it to a more modern context, Hitler, all shaped and changed the human story.
I cannot expect someone (if that someone exists) namely God, to use MY emotional sentiments when he has his own. His own being much more outside the limited context of time and wisdom I am able to use in my short time I have been around.
I don't find the analytical look at what he (the may or may not exist God) did to be threatening. I find it to be - if I can study it- enlightening.
I can always "hate him" later I guess. But first I want to understand.
in numbers 31 we read the following:.
jehovah then told moses:2 take vengeance for the israelites on the midianites.
afterward you will be gathered to your people.3 so moses spoke to the people, saying: equip men from among you for battle against midian and to execute jehovahs vengeance on midian.4 you should send 1,000 of each tribe of all the tribes of israel into the army............ 7 they waged war against midian, just as jehovah had commanded moses, and they killed every male.8 along with the others slain, they killed the kings of midian, namely, evi, rekem, zur, hur, and reba, the five kings of midian.
For many religious people, the "parameters" of what they feel able to question are determined by their existing beliefs.
That is a profiund statement. I think you could take the word "religious" out and it would still be a true statement.
Steve I really appreciate how you look at things from many angles.
It seems that it is like a prism. Things change depending on where you are standing.
I esp. appreciate you being willing to at least discuss something other than the easy conclusion any one can arrive at.
To me, the "truth" ( I am using this word in no way connected to JWs) is worth a hard look.
I am willing to suspend my natural outrage in search of it.
I can always add my human indignation at what my search reveals at any point cant I?
in numbers 31 we read the following:.
jehovah then told moses:2 take vengeance for the israelites on the midianites.
afterward you will be gathered to your people.3 so moses spoke to the people, saying: equip men from among you for battle against midian and to execute jehovahs vengeance on midian.4 you should send 1,000 of each tribe of all the tribes of israel into the army............ 7 they waged war against midian, just as jehovah had commanded moses, and they killed every male.8 along with the others slain, they killed the kings of midian, namely, evi, rekem, zur, hur, and reba, the five kings of midian.
Dismissing Servant, that is pretty funny.
Line up ladies!
