Moxy

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Posts by Moxy

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  79

  When God created Adm, did he knw that Adam wd sin?

  by D wiltshire in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when god created adam and eve did he foreknow that they would sin?.

  this is taken from the reasoning book:.

  when god created adam, did he know that adam would sin?.

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  Moxy

  heres another problem i have that i havent heard expressed before.

  how is it that god proves his way his right? this is often compared to a court case where two sides meet and consider the evidence. but where is the other side? nobody's heard the devils side of things. weve only heard what the bible SAYS his side of things is, namely, he is pure evil all the time, just blind raging evil. how do we know this is an accurate portrayal of him and the issues being raised? this is like the prosecuting attorney coming into court and presenting his opponenet's arguments for him. and when the portrayal of his opponent is one of absolute extreme cartoonish evil, we naturally wonder if there is some exaggeration.

  so we just have to trust god, is that what you say? well if we cant trust god, who can we trust, eh? but thats the whole premise of the 'issue of sovereignty' doctrine, we CAN'T trust god. if we could trust him, why couldn't he just say 'trust me - my way is best' from the beginning? but apparently we can't trust him, so he has allowed the issue to play out. why have the farce of a trial if only one side is presenting all the evidence and arguments? if we COULD trust that side to fairly present the full case, why did we need the trial in the first place?

  mox
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  21

  Reasons for Leaving JWs/Fatal Flaw

  by patio34 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i ran across this in "river out of eden" by richard dawkins (pgs 131-132) yesterday and it accurately sums up why i left jws 9 months ago and, essentially, belief in a creator:.

  re dna survivial: 'when the utility function-that which is being maximized--is dna survival, this is not a recipe for happiness.

  so long as dna is passed on, it does not matter who or what gets hurt in the process.

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  Moxy

  even as a kid, i couldnt reconcile this. why poison, webs, fangs, camouflage, etc? a nagging inconsistency that i can finally put to rest and ease my troubled mind.

  mox
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  28

  Red Flag Apostate Phrases for JWs

  by comment in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i remember that when i was a witness, seeing certain phrases would trigger the response: "aha, this must be from an apostate!".

  those words and phrases included:.

  "the watchtower society"--because the brothers would usually just call it "the society" and because this was, of course, merely a legal instrument the brothers used to advance the preaching work.. "the governing body"--because despite the power they may wield, the governing body does stay in the background personality-wise most of the time and has done so pretty much since the days of knorr; therefore, i regarded any attempts to point to them as personally important as suspicious (and can recall being charmed in an odd way a few years ago when a brother giving a public talk was unable to recall the name of the society's current president).. "the rank and file"--obviously this was insulting because jehovah's witnesses have no clergy-laity division!

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  Moxy

  carrying a green bible
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  14

  What is the most UNFULFILLED prophecy inthe bible

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the" creator book "helps us to see how many of the bibles predictions came true.. for instance on pg 106 we find,.

  "consider this point.

  isaiah wrote about babylons final situation:babylon the decoration of kingdoms, the beauty of the pride of the chaldeans, must become as when god overthrew sodom and gomorrah.she will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation".

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  Moxy

  when this prophecy is discussed, it is usually noted that other ancient cities are still here today like rome, athens or jerusalem (there arent many) so that it is unusual that great cities like babylon and ninevah (about which a similar prophecy is made) are now gone. of course, it must also be noted that when the term 'inhabited' is used, there is a caveat. the city IS inhabited, but it is not a vibrant, inhabited city like before. lots of leeway on this prophecy of course.

  this reminds me of another urban legend, that saddam hussein had plans to rebuild babylon that were foiled by the gulf war.
  mox
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  589

  MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

  and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

  after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

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  Moxy

  i apologize if im asking dumb questions hawk, it IS a lot to keep up with but thx for replying so quickly. im just trying to clarify. i had searched for the numbers 1267 & 1268 which you mentioned twice as UN resolutions and couldnt find anything. i see now that that was probably just a typo for 1296 & 1297.

  re 'Criteria for Association': kent posted the application form, 4 scanned pages and some html.
  ( http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Avis=WO&Dato=20011002&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=110020001&Ref=AR )
  the html has 2 headings:
  REQUIRED APPLICATION MATERIALS
  and
  CRITERIA FOR ASSOCIATION WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC INFORMATION
  are these letters that are included with the app? 2 seperate letters? im just trying to figure out when gillies refers to the 'Criteria for Association' being published, if he is refering to a specific publication and if we can determine when it was first published.

  mox
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  589

  MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

  and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

  after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

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  Moxy

  Years later, unbe-known to the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses, the United Nations published ?Criteria for As-sociation?, stipulating that affiliated NGO?s are required to support the goals of the United Nations.

  why is 'criteria for association' in quotes? is this an actual document he is refering to? do you know what this could possibly be?

  also hawkaw: i dont see where youve posted these resolutions 1267 & 1268 you mention.

  mox
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  7

  Exactly what is the URL to the london letter?

  by sf in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have searched and cannot find it.

  i would like the link to the guardian's article itself.

  i need it straight from them in order to paste it up in yahoo.

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  Moxy

  it is not posted. the guardian received this correspondance and steven bates passed it along.

  mox
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  79

  When God created Adm, did he knw that Adam wd sin?

  by D wiltshire in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when god created adam and eve did he foreknow that they would sin?.

  this is taken from the reasoning book:.

  when god created adam, did he know that adam would sin?.

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  Moxy

  well put runningman. so how did you present the talk? did u touch on the 'selective foreknowledge' concept? i dont believe i have EVER used it in a talk. i never believed it from the beginning.

  mox
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  79

  When God created Adm, did he knw that Adam wd sin?

  by D wiltshire in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when god created adam and eve did he foreknow that they would sin?.

  this is taken from the reasoning book:.

  when god created adam, did he know that adam would sin?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Moxy

  regardless of what you think about genesis or adam or eve, this argument comes down to 2 possibilities for me. likely i am over-simplifying things but this is how i see it.

  assume there is a god, i.e. a source of all things.
  either the universe is deterministic or not. by deterministic i mean that given the state of the universe at some point in time, the state at any other point in time can be uniquely determined.

  if the universe is deterministic, either god has the ability to uniquely determine the state of the universe at any given point or he does not.

  if he does have that ability, he is directly responsible for everything in the universe.

  if either he does not have that ability or the universe is not deterministic, so that the ability simply does not exist, then his knowledge is limited. he cannot foresee the outcome if choices and is not therefore the source of ultimate answers. he is imperfect.

  the WT argument is a bizarre attempt to have both of situations true at the same time. he is at once capable of determining the future but not responsible for it because he chooses not to determine it. this has been compared to absolving yourself of responsibity in a murder by closing your eyes as you pulled the trigger. and anyways its pure speculation with no biblical support.

  an interesting sidenote: WT also teaches that god at times chooses to use his ability for certain individuals. this is how living memebers of the remnant can speak of having a 'final sealing' as paul did and also how the great crowd can be said to have their names indelibly written in the book of life at the end of the thousand years. how he can 'see' the future of one individual without 'seeing' the future of every other individual in the system is a matter perhaps best left to schizophrenics.

  mox
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  7

  Speculation about upcoming WT article

  by Makena1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the upcoming articles listed in the latest wt is:.

  "i appeal to caesar".

  just speculating, but could this be an article that explains the ngo/dpi association to the rank and file?.

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  Moxy

  reminds me of the joke we'd tell about the press room in brooklyn having the big red button to stop the presses, but that theirs would be behind a glass box labeled, 'break in case of new light.'

  mox