msil

Joined

• started 31 topics
• posted 292 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by msil

• 
  501

  UNITED NATIONS , NGO's and WTBS

  by MacHislopp in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  following the link given by kent,.

  i have several observation to make:.

  (from the link : http://www.un.org/moreinfo/ngolink/brochure.htm).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Had enough,

  Questions From Readers Nov 1999 WT - I think its Nov 1 (I dont have it here).

  There is now a 1999 CD available
• 
  80

  Nov. 8 Awake - Wife Beaters-Sick

  by MrMoe in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i will let you all hang who ever the heck wrote this crap.

  november 8, 2001 awake page 9: some battered women may need to seek assistance from the authorities.

  at times, a point of crisis-such as intervention of the police-can cause an abusive man to see the seriousness of the action.. page 12: should the battered wife leave her husband?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Bridgette,

  Thanks for your response. I agonized over whether I should even post with regard to this subject as I know it is such an emotional one and to be totally frank I think there are no answers that can take away the hurt due to abusive male dominance as manifest so often.

  Part of the discussion centered on contributing factors. I would like to take the liberty to discuss just ONE (note NOT all) reason I believe that JW men can become abusive.

  The issue I am speaking about is: since pursuit of education was suppressed for so long and the male (according to Bible theory) is supposed to be the provider that so many JW males are ill equipped to compete in the working world. Many develop a chip-on-the-shoulder attitude and this can create such an additional stress on the JW male. They are not supposed to work overtime, they are accused of being materialistic if the do try and improve their lot in life, they are accused of being worse than one without faith if they do not provide adequately.

  I think that then instead of turning the frustration back onto the source (their own inadequacy - caused by the rules they live under as a JW or ultimately against the organization that imposed the beliefs on them in the first place) they form a psychological love/hate relationship with the family they need to provide for.

  Ever notice how many of the "poorer" elders are the hardliners and how many of those with some money tend to be more understanding (or is that just the sum of my own observation)?
• 
  501

  UNITED NATIONS , NGO's and WTBS

  by MacHislopp in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  following the link given by kent,.

  i have several observation to make:.

  (from the link : http://www.un.org/moreinfo/ngolink/brochure.htm).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Dungbeetle,

  Wow!! I never had you in mind when I made my reference (it is actually the title of a very interesting book) to the "inmates running the assylum". I believe if you and Hawk were doing the leg work on this by yourselves it would be done very orderly and with great care and attention to detail.

  So please accept my apology. You and Hawk were and are still doing a good job.

  I do not wish to get involved in a side issue and distract you guys any further. So blame me and move on. My opinions on some of the other individuals involved persist, but nothing can be gained by expressing them any further.

  It seems pretty obvious to me how the UN issue will be much more effective for convincing the average dub than the other issues mentioned in your post (yes the vile actions you spoke of are worse - but thats not the key here). The UN issue is a deliberate action taken by the "Organization". The other issues you mentioned are skirted away because when you bring them up to the ordinary dub they simply feel that it is the "pressures of this old system that cause some of the brothers to engage in those immoral acts". This is not something that can be blamed on a a fragment of the organization as an excuse by the average dub. This one makes them think!!
• 
  80

  Nov. 8 Awake - Wife Beaters-Sick

  by MrMoe in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i will let you all hang who ever the heck wrote this crap.

  november 8, 2001 awake page 9: some battered women may need to seek assistance from the authorities.

  at times, a point of crisis-such as intervention of the police-can cause an abusive man to see the seriousness of the action.. page 12: should the battered wife leave her husband?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Well I have read this thread for a few days now. Then yesterday I received my own copy of the awake and just finished reading it. I know I will be flayed for it but here I go playing devils advocate...

  I will preface my comments by saying that I totally respect the circumstances and pain many here have endured and I hope they have either escaped from or found ways to come to safety and comfort. No person deserves to be mistreated. As far as my own personal views are concerned the punishment should fit the crime - if a coward beats his wife he should be used as a pinata at the next police training school.

  First off, the issue of "should she leave him?".
  My personal and immediate reaction is "of course!!". But the WTBS cannot come up with what you want Mr Moe - a one size fits all. There can be different severity of abuse (of course none is acceptable). It should be the spouses choice to leave or not to leave. If the WTBS had said ALWAYS leave then would you have criticized them for that too? We all espouse "freedom of thought and freedom of choice". If the rule was to be made that she should ALWAYS leave aren't you taking away the freedom of choice?

  Secondly, the Risk Indicators
  As cited much later in this thread the risk indicators were not conceived by the WTBS (although when I first started reading this thread Mr Moe's first post mislead myself and from subsequent posts some others into thinking they were). Only much later did we see that the indicators were published by Richard Gelles. what are his credentials?

  Richard J. Gelles is Director of the Family Violence Research Program, and a professor of Sociology and Psychology at the University of Rhode Island. He has published extensively on the topics of child abuse, wife abuse, and family violence. His most recent books are: Intimate Violence (Touchstone, 1989); Physical Violence in American Families: Risk Factors and Adaptions in 8,145 Families (Transaction Books, 1990); Intimate Violence in Families, (Sage, 1990); and Current Controversies on Family Violence (Sage, 1993).

  So while our instincts and own experiences might lead us to disagree with the indicators we should ascertain what lead Mr Gelles to publish them. Are they based on statistics? I don't know. But the WTBS quoted from someone whose credentials would certainly be acceptable as an expert witness in a law court. If you would cast your eyes to the opposite page of the article you can see the context in which the "risk indicators" is placed. Look at the 2 subheadings: "Cultural Influence" and "No Excuse for Battering". If you read the 2 headings you can see the important sentence "The above factors may help to explain spouse abuse, but they do not excuse it." The next sentence: "Put simply, beating one's mate is a gross sin in God's eyes".

  The next time I see Mr Moe quote she says:
  "OK - take this statement for an example: "Some battered women may need to seek assistance" - SOME? And who defines some?
  Or - take this "At times, a point of crisis-such as intervention of the police..." A point of crisis - and what is thier definition of a point of crisis?"

  Why do you seek explicit definitions? Again you want the one-size-fits-all? Or are you wanting to remove freedom of choice again?

  I do agree with you, Mr Moe, about how pathetic the experience is and how the husband now "allows her to choose what music she listens to". I definitely agree that the WTBS treats women as inferior.
  but if one wants to believe in the Bible (which I don't) then one reads about "husbandly owners". Take a look at such verses as Rom 7:2, 1 Pet 3:1, Isa 54:5, Jer 31:32. If you want to believ in the Bible then you probably need to find away explaining away verses like those. I don't believe in the Bible and have no problem seeing woman as equals (ok I confess I love women more than I love men they are greater than men).

  If you have been watching the news and seeing how the Taliban treat women it is interesting to note how so many cultures mistreat women. Page 6 of the Awake has many examples of how women are mistreated in different cultures. Religion is the largest suppressor of women on the planet.

  Other things I found interesting in the article: the way that they are so lenient on wife-beaters. But then all religion tolerates this crap. I have yet to see one that doesn't. At least the JWs will eventually take action (according to the article - although reality might prove differently) to DF an offender.

  grrr....they just showed the clips on TV again of the Taliban treatment of women. I hate religion!!
• 
  501

  UNITED NATIONS , NGO's and WTBS

  by MacHislopp in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  following the link given by kent,.

  i have several observation to make:.

  (from the link : http://www.un.org/moreinfo/ngolink/brochure.htm).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Hawk - for the record.

  I am not critical of your actions at all. You have been one of the more rational people dealing with this issue.

  I appreciate what you have done. There are others though who have advocated methods which will be less than effective.
• 
  3

  Important point re WT-UN issue

  by comment in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  on the main thread concerning the watchtower society's being a registered non-governmental organization with the united nations, the objection was raised that if the department of public information decides to revoke the society's ngo status, those wishing to expose the society's hypocrisy in this matter would no longer have the option of showing their witness acquaintances the society's name listed among the other ngos on the un web site.. however:.

  if the society lost its status and was removed, would there not be an announcement or press release on the web site about the decision?

  it would be very odd to just drop an ngo without letting the public know about it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  comment,

  The point is - we should not even have to face this. If it had been handled correctly and not as Mad Apostate has advocated this point would be moot. Now everyone is playing against the clock.
• 
  501

  UNITED NATIONS , NGO's and WTBS

  by MacHislopp in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  following the link given by kent,.

  i have several observation to make:.

  (from the link : http://www.un.org/moreinfo/ngolink/brochure.htm).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Trevor,

  The WTBS will win this battle now. Watch!!

  It will be a while before we get another golden opportunity like this too.
• 
  501

  UNITED NATIONS , NGO's and WTBS

  by MacHislopp in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  following the link given by kent,.

  i have several observation to make:.

  (from the link : http://www.un.org/moreinfo/ngolink/brochure.htm).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  .
• 
  501

  UNITED NATIONS , NGO's and WTBS

  by MacHislopp in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  following the link given by kent,.

  i have several observation to make:.

  (from the link : http://www.un.org/moreinfo/ngolink/brochure.htm).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Hawk - DONT. Please do not spoil this. The DPI should not be alerted.

  For instance. I sent my father an email about this. He is a loyal dub. His response was "how do we prove it is true"? 2 others I spoke with today have said the same. The right way is to designate someone like yourself to come here, formulate ideas and then have the designated person go back to the UN. Obtaining complete information is needed. Guaranteeing that people can link to the URL and see for themselves is far more powerful. If the DPI removes the WT entry from the roster it will then be MUCH less effective and harder to prove.

  how do you define victory in this battle? Is it by having the DPI spank the WT or remove them? Or is it by SHOWING dubs from all over the hypocrisy of the WT? The latter option is a much BIGGER victory in my opinion.

  Oh Kent, why the hang did you let the cat out of the bag so soon?
  The inmates are running the assylum now!!

  Amazing, please make sure that you keep your stuff under wraps. We cannot let this happen with that too.
• 
  10

  Response To My Mother's Letter

  by Ranchette in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear mom and dad,.

  hope you are both doing okay.. we are all fine except i had to take (our daughter)in to the dr. yesterday.

  a stomach virus or something?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  msil

  Ranhette,

  Nice job. Simple and to the point - every doubt planted has a chance to grow.

  I have a hard time with my wife and kids too. I am using simple small doubts and am making big use of the chief ploy of Satan - "distraction". Distraction from the dub routine - eg. weekend away, enrolling them in outside interests, buying them new things to occupy themselves, new pets, remodelling, moving house, keeping them up late on saturday nights.....and on and on and on

  To eat an elephant you take one small bite at a time.

  The UN thing is a nice juicy snack. Isn't it?