Posts by cedars

16

Update on the forth-coming history of Zion's Tower

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

one of the author's introductory essay in rough draft.

worth a read and comment, i think.

cedars

Old Goat

They tell all that with startling clarity. But they tell more of the story than anyone else, and they take you places that Russell only hints at. They explore all the Millerite connections.

Great, that's good to hear!

Cedars

153

Shocking talk from 2013 District Convention urges parents to shun disfellowshipped children

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yldwe_6jsu.

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cedars.

From the way he gave this talk, it would appear that Steven Bell has his sights on being the next governing body member... he seemed to enjoy giving this cultish loyalty talk... he even makes fun of non-JWs who question the WT's disfellowshipping policies...

It's a chilling thought isn't it.

You might be interested to know that GB member Guy Pierce was in attendance at this convention, so likely Steven was out to impress.

Cedars

153

Shocking talk from 2013 District Convention urges parents to shun disfellowshipped children

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yldwe_6jsu.

.

cedars.

cedars

Marvin, by all means - spread it far and wide. The guy virtually admits that disfellowshipping is emotional blackmail in his talk.

I felt sick putting this video together. I have an unnerving feeling that Steven Bell who gave the talk will end up as a member of the Governing Body. I don't care how indoctrinated you are, you need a heart of stone to give a talk like this.

Cedars

153

Shocking talk from 2013 District Convention urges parents to shun disfellowshipped children

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yldwe_6jsu.

.

cedars.

cedars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yLdwe_6JsU

Cedars

16

Update on the forth-coming history of Zion's Tower

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

one of the author's introductory essay in rough draft.

worth a read and comment, i think.

cedars

Though I'm looking forward to this book immensely, I'm a little unnerved by statements such as the following (in relation to what others have written before)...

The focus has been on the development of Watch Tower doctrine from Millerite Adventism. This is a mistake.

and...

Storrs was an independent Age-to-Come believer, abandoning Millerite Adventism in 1844.

Both Nelson Barbour AND George Storrs were followers of William Miller leading up to the Great Disappointment, and both were extremely influential on Russell's teachings. The fact that both Storrs and Barbour abandoned Millerism shortly after the Great Disappointment doesn't negate the fact that they were influenced heavily by it during their association.

I therefore don't see how it can be a "mistake" to highlight the lineage between Millerite Adventism and the early Bible Student movement when certain Millerite concepts of end-time chronology undeniably bled into Russell's beliefs.

Notice the following from a 1906 Watchtower (reprints page 3822) in which Russell describes his first encounter with Barbour's writings, and admits that he had been overly dismissive of the time arguments aspect of Adventism...

It was about January, 1876, that my attention was specially
drawn to the subject of prophetic time, as it relates
to these doctrines and hopes. It came about in this way:
I received a paper called The Herald of the Morning, sent
by its editor, Mr. N. H. Barbour. When I opened it I at
once identified it with Adventism from the picture on its
cover, and examined it with some curiosity to see what time
they would next set for the burning of the world. But
judge my surprise and gratification, when I learned from
its contents that the Editor was beginning to get his eyes
open on the subjects that for some years had so greatly
rejoiced our hearts here in Allegheny-that the object of
our Lord's return is not to destroy, but to bless all the
families of the earth, and that his coming would be thieflike,
and not in flesh, but as a spirit-being, invisible to men;
and that the gathering of his church and the separation of
the "wheat" from the "tares" would progress in the end
of this age without the world's being aware of it.

I rejoiced to find others coming to the same advanced
position, but was astonished to find the statement very
cautiously set forth, that the editor believed the prophecies
to indicate that the Lord was already present in the world
(unseen and invisible), and that the harvest work of gathering
the wheat was already due,-and that this view was
warranted by the time-prophecies which but a few months
before he supposed had failed.

Here was a new thought: Could it be that the time
prophecies which I had so long despised, because of their
misuse by Adventists, were really meant to indicate when
the Lord would be invisibly present to set up his kingdom
-a thing which I clearly saw could be known in no other
way? It seemed, to say the least, a reasonable, a very reasonable
thing, to expect that the Lord would inform his
people on the subject-especially as he had promised that
the faithful should not be left in darkness with the world,
and that though the day of the Lord would come upon all
others as a thief in the night (stealthily, unawares), it
should not be so to the watching, earnest saints.-1 Thes.
5:4.

I recalled certain arguments used by my friend Jonas
Wendell and other Adventists to prove that 1873 would
witness the burning of the world, etc.-the chronology of
the world showing that the six thousand years from Adam
ended with the beginning of 1873-and other arguments
drawn from the Scriptures and supposed to coincide. Could
it be that these time arguments, which I had passed by as
unworthy of attention, really contained an important truth
which they had misapplied?

Anxious to learn, from any quarter, whatever God had
to teach, I at once wrote to Mr. Barbour, informing him of
my harmony on other points and desiring to know particularly
why, and upon what Scriptural evidences, he held
that Christ's presence and the harvesting of the Gospel age
dated from the Autumn of 1874.

The link between Russell and Barbour's fascination with end-time chronology, which in turn was influenced by his time as an Adventist under William Miller, is undeniable and spelled out by Russell himself. I hope the new writers aren't so keen on setting their work apart from their predecessors as to dismiss what Russell himself openly acknowledged in his writings.

Unquestionably without Russell inheriting this fascination with date-setting and bible chronology, Watchtower would never have morphed into what it is today.

In short, I hope in their eagerness to write something original they haven't thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Cedars

67

Another Suicide

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

there wouldn't have been any good way to hear the news i suppose.

it's just so strange to recall the conversation yesterday.

my "still in" parents are with me and my inactive sister having a pleasant conversation.

cedars

Awful news, sorry to hear this Billy. It sounds like you really cared for him.

Cedars

17

Ex-Apostate experiences?

by zound in

jw
friends

expanding on a point someone made in another thread:.

just wondering if anyone ever heard any experiences at assemblies or khalls of apostates that went back to become an upstanding jw.

or even just experiences related amongst jw's.

cedars

Nope, never heard anything along those lines. I guess the reason is it's impossible to "unknow" what you learn as an apostate unless, of course, you are just pretending for sake of family.

Cedars

26

Local Needs Talk: Brothers must repair dents and scratches on their vehicles...

by Calebs Airplane in

so about 8 years ago, we had a local needs talk about dents an scratches !!!!

it was given by the cobe and this guy was just your normal everyday elder.

except he had his occasional pet peeves... like (you guessed it) dents and scratches on some of the brothers' vehicles.

cedars

Ah yes, the "Book of Opinions" - regularly taken out and read from by elders with a bit too much to say for themselves and applied as law.

As well as local needs, you will also find this "book" referred to during public talks when certain elders try to apply their material to everyday life.

Cedars

79

Role Reversal: Placing 1969 Awake with JW's Manning the New Portable Literature Displays

by snapdragon4 in

jw
friends

in recent weeks the jw’s here in the uk have been setting up their new portable watchtower literature displays in my local town square on a saturday morning.

as they hadn’t knocked on my door for at least five years, and consequently feeling somewhat neglected, i thought that i would pay them a visit instead.. .

the first thing i needed to do was arrange my literature.

cedars

Wow snapdragon4 you are a legend! So proud of you! You handled that brilliantly. I'm sure you will have made an impression on that 14 year old. The whole thing was worth it for that alone.

Had this happened on my doorstep I imagine they would have run a mile. The beauty of this new initiative is that they are a captive audience and other people are watching.

Precisely. They can't tell you to bog off because you are in a public place, and if they are rude to you other members of the public will notice. They're like fish in a barrel.

Cedars

83

There are more Jehovah's Witnesses in Portugal than there are Scientologists in the whole world

by cedars in

jw
friends

it would be nice if this little nougat of information could be more widely known - especially by journalists.. the quoted figures for scientology are taken from tony ortega's 2011 article in the village voice, which quotes former scientology pr executive jeff hawkins as saying.... "i know that event attendance internationally was somewhere in the region of 25,000 to 35,000. the international 'bodies in the shop' (people actually in the orgs that week for service) was 16,000 to 18,000. ias was struggling to get 40,000 members.

based on this and a lot of other information i was privy to, i estimate the actual number of scientologists at a maximum of 40,000. that's on the high side.".

portugal is one of 33 countries with more than 40,000 active jehovah's witnesses - demonstrating the gulf in size between the two faiths.. the following list shows all countries with more than 40,000 jws according to their reported peak publishers for 2013.. .

cedars

GoodGuyGreg

Even if they pulled the actual number 40% out of their asses, I definitely find it plausible that the ratio of convertees from informal witnessing to children of witnesses being in the vicinity of 60/40, with a (very) small share of new members being caught by their doors.

Thanks for the extra info, but I definitely think they pulled it out of their asses. There's no way 4 out of 10 newly baptized ones were coming in from informal Witnessing when I was an active Jdub. It was more like 8 or 9 out of 10 were friends or (mostly) family, with an extra 1 or 2 out of 10 the product of "some form" of preaching activity.

Cedars