That's an interesting argument - that going on the ministry doesn't necessarily equate to converting people. I'm from the UK and I can definitely see that people rarely take things further, even when they give the impression of being keenly interested. What would you do if people wanted to take things further? What if they said "You people have the truth. I want to be a Jehovah's Witness like you!" - what would you say then? Would you have a quiet word with them and tell them what's what? I'm not trying to stir anything by the way, I'm just genuinely curious, because I'm sure you will have anticipated that scenario, rare though it may be.
Posts by cedars
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64Is there a reason to remain a JW other than for family?
by cedars inthis strikes me as an important question.
in my short time on this forum it strikes me that many contributors are quite open about keeping a foot in both camps.
some are apparently even elders, serving in positions of authority within their respective congregations.
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64
Is there a reason to remain a JW other than for family?
by cedars inthis strikes me as an important question.
in my short time on this forum it strikes me that many contributors are quite open about keeping a foot in both camps.
some are apparently even elders, serving in positions of authority within their respective congregations.
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cedars
No Room For George - I wasn't trying to make any assumptions from your statement and I hate those that do that sort of thing. I respect everyone's beliefs so long as they are genuine. Can I assume that you feel comfortable evangelizing for the witnesses solely on the basis of them being a christian religion, and therefore you feel that you are leading them to Christ, and not to the FDS?
Do you subscribe to the idea of "where else shall we go?"
I'm not looking to pick a fight or disrespect anybody's sincere beliefs, I'm geninely interested in knowing your reasons, which I'm sure are well thought through.
leavingwt - I can totally sympathise personally with the fear of LOSING family, as well as simply displeasing them. I was interested in knowing whether there are any other justifiable reasons to continue a pretense other than those that are family-related?
punkofnice - I think we're on the same page there. Your picture's hilarious really, don't change it. Is that really what apostates look like do you think? I haven't seen one for ages, so I wouldn't know. At least now I can picture you as talking like Johnny Rotten when I'm reading your comments!
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Is there a reason to remain a JW other than for family?
by cedars inthis strikes me as an important question.
in my short time on this forum it strikes me that many contributors are quite open about keeping a foot in both camps.
some are apparently even elders, serving in positions of authority within their respective congregations.
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cedars
leavingwt - it amazes me that many don't have a problem with evangelizing for an organization they themselves no longer believe in. I struggled enough going on the ministry and getting in people's faces when I DID believe it was the truth, I can't imagine how awkward and untenable it must feel to do it when you know in your heart it's all lies and you are leading others to make the same mistakes you've made. I find the thought of people who find that kind of thing acceptable almost scary in a way, which is why I want to hear their arguments.
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Is there a reason to remain a JW other than for family?
by cedars inthis strikes me as an important question.
in my short time on this forum it strikes me that many contributors are quite open about keeping a foot in both camps.
some are apparently even elders, serving in positions of authority within their respective congregations.
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cedars
leavingwt - you make a valid point, that of wanting to limit the extent to which you have already been victimised by the society. I wasn't aware that financial reasons were that big an issue, but I can imagine how they might be. However, being "inactive" (technically "in" but not doing anything) isn't the same as going on the ministry, commenting at meetings, giving talks, giving the pretence that you agree with everything. That was what I was getting at.
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64
Is there a reason to remain a JW other than for family?
by cedars inthis strikes me as an important question.
in my short time on this forum it strikes me that many contributors are quite open about keeping a foot in both camps.
some are apparently even elders, serving in positions of authority within their respective congregations.
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cedars
Some good comments already!
leavingwt - money/inheritance may be a reason, but is it a sufficient reason? You are in effect being paid to pretend you're a witness? That doesn't sound right, although I notice you don't necessarily condone it. Cool picture by the way - I was immortalised as some sort of amoeba when I joined the forum, and it seemed fitting given the way I am being treated by many of my witness "friends" right now!
No Room For George - wow, only 25% of what they teach is wrong? Have you read Crisis of Conscience? In the words of McEnroe - "you can't be serious!" Surely a basic belief is that the FDS administers God's affairs on Earth today, and is God's channel of communication. Do you believe that? If you don't (which I sincerely hope) surely you agree that it renders most of their other teachings moot?
Nomad soul - I won't deny that power is a reason, but is it a justifiable reason? I was an elder myself at one stage, and I have to admit that the responsibility and authority is a major reason to push your doubts to one side. Surely that doesn't make it virtuous to do so?
Scarred for life - I'm glad to see we're on the same page on many things, although when you mention your own experiences it doesn't sound like you don't have too many reasons for compassion towards those who remain a witness because of family. You admit yourself that if things had worked out differently for you, it would have been "complicated". What if you HAD married or had kids whilst still a witness? What if they all looked up to you as an example, or would have been ashamed of you if you gave up "the truth"?
punkofnice - you need to change that pic! When I'm reading your comments etc I think of you as some sort of pimp or gangster with a gravelly voice, ugh! I'm sure you're not like that. Anyway, you're onto something with the 5th column - I assume you mean to destroy from within. Is that a noble reason?
shamus100 - orangutans are barred from this discussion, sorry! I had bad experiences as a child, don't ask.
nugget - good for you!
dune - love bombing. I've noticed that the "truth" seems to attract the socially inept and those who would otherwise we hopeless at making friends. I should have qualified the question by saying it applied only to non-nutters and those with people skills, sorry!
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Is there a reason to remain a JW other than for family?
by cedars inthis strikes me as an important question.
in my short time on this forum it strikes me that many contributors are quite open about keeping a foot in both camps.
some are apparently even elders, serving in positions of authority within their respective congregations.
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cedars
This strikes me as an important question. In my short time on this forum it strikes me that many contributors are quite open about keeping a foot in both camps. Some are apparently even elders, serving in positions of authority within their respective congregations. Each of these people can justify to themselves why they remain as a witness, to the point of even giving talks and parroting the dogma of the society (thus assisting the society in making new converts) even though they know the teachings to be false.
My question is this..
Is there justifiable cause to pretend to be a Jehovah's Witness when you know the organisation to be a scam OTHER than to keep your family members happy, or to remain in touch with them?
A subsidiary question could be...
If someone chooses to remain a witness for the sake of family, is it right that they should hold on to positions of authority within the organisation, thereby furthering the interests of the society?
I ask this because the "family" issue is the only justifiable reason I can personally think of for parading around as someone you are not. A strong desire to make my family happy and fulfil their expectations was what kept me in the organisation for more than a year after it dawned on me that this wasn't "the truth". Finally I realised that even this reason wasn't enough, and thankfully my family has been very understanding in my decision to become inactive, even though many aren't aware of the real reasons why.
I'm interested to know whether others share this opinion, or whether anyone can demonstrate why there may be other justifiable reasons to remain a witness?
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My public talk on sunday
by mankkeli ini am currently preparing for the public talk on sunday and as i was looking through the outline some these thoughts just keep popping up my mind that in the face of several allegations and numerous scandal, wbts has not stopped claiming to be god's organisation, i am wondering if they will ever realise that their strategies are no longer appealing to the general public.
regrettably, they keep on publishing and printing using victims of mind control hazards to the detriment of over 7 million rank and file members and spiritual illiterates in the society.
i keep on pondering on how long this malicious activity would continue.
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cedars
mankkeli - this appears to have become a broader discussion about the reasons why you are still parading as an appointed man in an organisation you know to be false, and in so doing propagating the lies of the society. Is this what you intended, or were you genuinely seeking support for giving your talk?
I can see your argument that you are in the "process" of withdrawing, and that's commendable at least. It sounds to me like you want to go down in a blaze of glory and take thousands with you. Surely you're not naive enough to think that anything you do or say from an assembly platform will convince diehard believers to drop their treasured beliefs, however flawed, all in one go? If I've misread your "strategy", will you be giving us a clue as to how you intend to execute your strategic withdrawal? Will your display be documented and revealed to all of us retrospectively in the future?
I can sympathise with what many are saying that every word you say from the platform that you know to be false could be counting against you. I wonder whether people will look back on your "bowing out" performance and take away from it that you are a genuine man following your conscience when you have been so happy to say things you know to be false over such a long period of time. How, they might argue, would they be able to believe anything else you say AFTER your retreat if you were speaking with a forked tongue BEFORE your grand exit?
I appreciate everyone has their reasons for keeping a foot in both camps, but it disturbs me that so many do for reasons OTHER than keeping fellow family members happy. Are there any other legitimate reasons? Maybe I'll start a new thread on that question. That was what kept me trapped in the organisation for years after I realised it was false, and thankfully I was able to sneak out through the back door by becoming inactive. It also helps that I have a very understanding and open-minded wife.
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Slave class mentioned Prophet in the closing speech at convention
by Gorbatchov ini did not believe my ears yesterday during the sunday closing speech at the convention, held by the branch coordinator.. the slave class was called "jehovah's prophet".
i know they claim not to be inspired directly.. but the term "prophet" is much more then "not inspired".
dictionary's discribe "prophet":.
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cedars
Gorbatchov, Earnest - if you're interested, I've started a discussion based on words taken directly from the final talk at the convention. I would be interested in your input...
As regards the Faithful Slave being a "prophet" - they think the prophecy of the two witnesses applies to them. Revelation 11:10 refers to the two witnesses as the "two prophets".
You can argue as follows:
Either the Faithful Slave are prophets, or they are not.
- If they are not prophets, then the times we are living in are NOT urgent - because otherwise prophets would have been raised up (as mentioned Revelation even describes "two prophets" being raised, a scripture the FDS applies to themselves).
- If they ARE prophets, then according to the criteria found at Deuteronomy 18:20-22 they are false prophets, because by their own admission they have predicted things that have turned out to be false.
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A warped view of the "Anglo-American World Power"
by cedars ina relative of mine recently asked me to comment on what was said in the final talk at the latest convention.
i obviously didn't attend the convention, but i was able to get hold of a recording.
here is a transcript from a recording of the final talk, entitled god's kingdom will crush all other kingdoms - when?
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cedars
Thanks sd-7. You're right, it does have a ring of Rutherford to it. I found myself listening to his 1938 "Face the Facts" speech at the Albert Hall, and was astounded at the similar level of hogwash, and how saying absurdities with a booming voice somehow made these acceptable, believable, even applaudable. If you were to actually read the Face the Facts transcript, even in the same period, with a calm and relaxed voice to an impartial audience - it probably would have drawn laughter and derision, and rightly so.
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Watchtower falsification of its history
by jwfacts ini received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.
so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .
"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.
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cedars
Old Goat - thanks for climbing down on the use of the word "silly" - I appreciate it. I apologise for getting worked up.
I'm still not sure why Russell's mates and what they got up to is of more significance that this, but at no time has it been my intention to be disrespectful to you. If I have been in the heat of the moment, I'm sorry.