Posts by stuffwotifink

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

Asking people to define a god so it can be discussed or debated and then just dismissing any silent or absent god as "irrelevant", "worthless" or "pointless", is empty. (argumentum ad lapidem)
This could be avoided by simply giving a justification for the dismissal

No one is asking you to define god that way, it's simply the best any believer has been able to do. Hardly my fault.

Are you missing the point on purpose?
Once they have "done their best" and posited a silent or absent god, dismissal as "assholegod" or "pointlessgod", is no real response at all. Certainly no disproof.
Doesn't even seem to be trying all that hard to even look like a real reply...

Dismissing someone's god belief as "irrelevant", is no rebuttal. Argumentum ad lapidem.
Dismissing a god as an asshole is also no disproof. Sounds awkwardly like an appeal to emotion (It is after all the only reason offered - and if it is in fact the reason for dismissal - IS an appeal to emotion.).

But as I said, this could be avoided simply by providing a justification of your dismissal, it wouldn't even need to be a good one. After all - it is you asking people to define their god. It is just dishonest to then respond as you are doing.

When Kate Wild said

No you haven't been able to prove to me with evidence that a creator was not responsible for guiding evolution and especially the formation of enantiomers.

You responded

It's been proved, just not to you because you've not bothered to learn enough to understand the evidence. The problem is not lack of proof presented to you, it's lack of effort to understand it on your part.

No. Untrue. You over step yourself.
It has been shown that a god is not in any way necessary.
There is an extreme difference. (Unless you care to detail the "Proof" that some god didn't guide things? Sounds impossible to me, I don't know why you'd claim to have done so.)

Anyway, I have a feeling I'm wasting my time.
Lack a belief... lol.

http://skepticexaminer.com/2015/02/why-the-lack-a-belief-response-is-problematic/

Worth a read, if you are a Lacktheist,.

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

That's the point, stuff. Any god defined ever is either irrelevant or an asshole.

Asking people to define a god so it can be discussed or debated and then just dismissing any silent or absent god as "irrelevant", "worthless" or "pointless", is empty. (argumentum ad lapidem)
This could be avoided by simply giving a justification for the dismissal.

50

The NEW "Bible Teach" book

by Oubliette in

the new "bible teach" book is out!

thetruthbr has posted links for this and several other of the new publications.

as an educator, i am very interested in where the society is heading with their alleged "bible education" program.

stuffwotifink

Page 103
"Truth 1": Jehovah reveals the future to us.

I know if you called a JW out on that claim, they would say that the "Us" is "anyone reading the scriptures quoted".
But I wonder how many older brothers or sisters make mention of 1914 or the UN being "Identified", when reading through that summary in a study.

"Truth 1" uses "us" and "we", when claiming knowledge.
"Truth 2" uses "you" when speaking to the reader.

The implication of privately revealed knowledge seems clear, but remains nicely deniable to anyone even mildly pedantic.
It's so long since I read any of the publications... I didn't expect to get quite so annoyed giving this one a peek. Foolish me.

It is easy to forget how wormtongued these snakes are.

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

EVERY believer must deal with the issue of theodicy at some point in their 'belief' journey. Some come up with excuses, others come to the only logical conclusion: god(s) does/do not exist.

Epicurus' quote sums it up:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Why on earth is that a problem to a believer who's god concept is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or so far from human: it's intervention in human affairs is not to be expected?

I'm not saying that a god exists in any of those forms, but people who believe one does, need pay no attention to the Epicurean Problem. It troubles only classical theology.
[That said, the Problem had a great impact upon me when I first heard it, believer in a all powerful butcher who claimed to be Love, as I was.]

48

Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.

by LAWHFol in

there are 2 questions that generate more pain,suffering & death, than any other question in existence.. these 2 questions are :.

"does god exist?".

"who is god"?.

stuffwotifink

Here, enjoy.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

I was careful to be specific in saying that my belief in Rodney was no different from a psychosis and not that all religion is a mental illness.

Well, then you were not all that careful, or specific.
Because unless I missed one of your comments, you said no such thing.

"I have a friend called Rodney, he wants everyone to be good towards each other, he looks after everyone but dang! The trouble is; he is invisible. As it happens, it was he who created the universe and he told me that he will kill those people who don’t believe in him but for all those who do, they will go into an everlasting paradise.

Qualitatively and philosophically is there any difference between my psychosis and theism?"

What you did was describe an example of psychosis and ask if it was different from theism, "qualitatively and philosophically".
I would not have posted a video answering that question - If you had simply made a statement that theism wasn't a mental illness. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm not quite that dull.
It may have been the question mark you used that threw me off...

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

If one thinks that a creator God is "simple," they've got another thing coming.

As prologos said, simpler isn't simple. And it was a joke, something I took the pains to point out.

It's like the theists didn't even read that Carl Sagan article OTWO posted above.

Between the time OTWO posted the Sagan quote and you posted the above statement. No theists, zero theists, posted. Atheist, Agnostic and Deist, no Theists...

If there is a deist god it is about as interesting and relevant as the fact that I have a pot of orange marmalade in the cupboard.
Actually my orange marmalade is far more useful.

As expected - you simply dismiss what you claimed you could disprove. A shame.

"As soon as the person posing the question carefully defines what they mean by "god" we can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that it does not exist."

You should be less bold with your empty claims.

Qualitatively and philosophically is there any difference between my psychosis and theism?

Yup. Here's an atheist telling you why. He's not an exciting speaker, but he is spot on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL4cb-P6Bek

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

"I can prove the god of theism doesn't exist. I and others have done so many times in this forum. If somebody means something else by god then let's discuss that too."

I was just now looking through your thread
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/269000/pastor-my-old-church-tried-re-convert-me-yesterday

And I'd say you do a thoroughly good job of dismantling the notion of any god existing who has omni attributes and is supposed to give even the faintest glimmer of a fuq about mankind. I don't actually believe I've seen someone break down the epicurean problem quite so mercilessly before. We seeminly have zero conflict of opinion there.
(The christian kerfuffle is hilarious, I'll be going back to continue reading the lulz)

"As soon as the person posing the question carefully defines what they mean by "god" we can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that it does not exist."

This is untrue though.
All you can do in regards to a claim of a god who is either absent or unknowing - is dismiss and scorn. Understandable, but not the proof you offer. [Though I guess the argument would then rest upon what you consider to be proof "beyond all reasonable doubt"]

I don't believe you to be ironmanning, but it kinda looks like it.
I don't think it's intentional, or I'd have said so, but it is what prompted my comment.

I would agree that it is pointless and meaningless to discuss or debate this silent god... However, it would not ipso facto make the god itself pointless or meaningless, just outside of our understanding. Which, after all, one might readily expect from something inhuman.

For this to render the god itself "pointless" or "meaningless" implies an expectation that the god behave a certain way. An expectation with no basis in regards to any god outside of the theology you refer to.

It seems like a dismissal upon the basis that the god doesn't meet a theological standard you have already established as flawed.

If we (rightly) dismiss gods within that theology because of its holes - but also dismiss any idea of a god who fails to meet the standard that same theology sets (because they are absent from, or silent to, mankind).

We have ourselves in a position where we would dismiss the proposal of a true god, even if such a thing were (or could be) offered.

The claim that a god can not be disproved is very often smug, but not in the least bit vacuous.

"I have no idea what point you are trying to make."

Hope I cleared that up for ya.

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

"No. I have specifically said many times that the the god of theism does not exist."

What you have or have not said in the past is unknown to me (and beside the point). If you stated that in this thread, I missed it.

You are arguing against the claims of Classical Theism. (I believe you mean that - there are, after all, many theologies)

If so, I don't think we differ in view. I think it can be shown to be logically inconsistent, as you imply. But then if it was clear to me you were only speaking only of the God of classical theism - my comment would not have contained a quote from you.
Much of your comment is about that god, since we agree in regard to that god it seems pointless to reply to most of it.

I would pay to see that.

Me laughing with my face? It's what I tend to use... You use your elbow or something?

"An absent "god" is meaningless and pointless."

Care to explain why?
Because you are not speaking of the god of classical theism there. "He/It" is not absent (within the theology, ofc).
So, like I said, which god? Because you kinda need it to be an omni-thisthatandtheother god too, to level charges at it for negligence. Otherwise justifiable reasons for it's absence could be many, without rendering the god either "meaningless" or "pointless".
Although, I tend not to speculate about the motivations and abilities of things I don't believe in.

Occam's Razor

Lol. To me it seems like "God dun it" it a simpler theory than the ones biochemistry offer me... I should dispense with science? (I jest, ofc)

447

Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

by LaurenM in

do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

stuffwotifink

It seems to me that in the scrabble to get believers to define their gods - atheists often make claims like "The evidence against "god" is overwhelmingly strong", without ever defining the god which they are themselves talking about.
If it's good for the goose... No?

So many arguments against the proposition of a god hinge upon the rather easy bait of the biblical model. A child can (many have) poke holes in that model. But then the claims of defeat are leveled at the very notion of god itself.

There is not and can not be, evidence in the material universe for an immaterial thing, ffs (even if we start by granting the existence of said immaterial thing, which, for the record, I don't). Only inference. Asking for it seems naive to the subject matter at hand.

"god" is not synonymous with "Jebus" or "Yahweh".

Also - the fact that a god doesn't intercede or make itself known, means nothing unless one has a reason to believe such a being would do so.
Perhaps it's best to leave speculating about what a god should or shouldn't do, to believers... Jus sayin.
Why anyone has reason to expect anything about the behaviour of a thing they don't believe in, I can't begin to imagine.

Any god not defined in a way that's at once both servile to man - yet omnieverybloodything, perfect and universal - yet comprehensible by the minds of mankind, is dismissed as "meaningless" or "pointless".
Makes me laugh with my face.

Even if there was a creator, so what? Where do you go from there? What is your next option? Choose who's concept of a creator is correct? More supposition? Are you going to worship it? Why would you? If it's real it clearly wants nothing to do with this planet. So again, WHAT IS THE POINT?

Yes. A million times yes. You are now my god. I shall defend your existence upon this forum!