That’s great news Alan—but how are you? Are you feeling calm now, or are you still reviewing the past days? Stress is horrible especially when we are worrying about a loved one, how do you feel now?
Nemesis
JoinedPosts by Nemesis
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37
Update on AlanF's Daughter
by AlanF innow that dad has recovered his equilibrium, i just wanted to say a huge thanks to everyone who expressed concern about my daughter the last couple of weeks.
in the great scheme of things this is a minor matter but it sure affected me!
i guess my family has been pretty lucky compared to others.. anyway, julie (that's the daughter one, not the wifely one) recovered so fast that she returned to school this past monday.
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New To The Board
by MarchOn ini should clarify, i am new at posting, not new to the board.. i've been checking in for a short time now.
"spying", "lurking", whatever you would like to call it.
but i thought it was time to come out of the "first closet" i've been in for more than 20 years.
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Nemesis
Hi MarchOn, and welcome.
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You Know admits his god is weak!
by ozziepost inin a strong statement of faith on another thread, our regular poster and self-appointed chief wts apologist gave this description of the god of jehovah's witnesses:.
the controversy is between jehovah and satan.. that will satisfy satan's acusations that jehovah has put a protective hedge around us .
so the god he worships is on an equal footing with a created being?
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Nemesis
Great post Alan,
I have always had a problem with the Watchtower’s teaching on sovereignty, and the supposed test—it goes something like this:
They state:
“The Main Issue-Sovereignty: When Adam and Eve rebelled against God, they challenged his sovereignty, that is, his right to rule. Jehovah could have destroyed them and started over with another couple, but that would not have settled the issue of whose rulership is right and best for people. Granted time to develop their societies according to their own ideas, humans would demonstrate beyond any doubt whether rulership independent from God could ever be successful….The 20th century saw a peak of scientific and industrial achievements. But it also saw the worst suffering in the entire history of the human race.”—Watchtower 2001, May 15 ( http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2001/5/15/article_02.htm)
1. Where in the Bible does God grant independent rulership to humans to basically do their own thing for X amount of years—circa 6000—as part of a sovereignty issue/test?
I cannot find any scriptures where God hands over rulership to mankind, and mankind is told to formulate its own governments and rulership independent of God for the purpose of a sovereignty issue. The article then goes on to say: “God’s Sovereignty Asserted Once and for all time, this tragic experiment in independence from God has demonstrated that rulership by humans apart from him can never succeed. Only God’s rulership can bring happiness, unity, health, and life.”
2. Besides there being no scriptures to say there ever has been a sovereignty issue being resolved. How can this assumed [but not scriptural] test be fair and reasonable when God has deliberately made it an impossible test, and therefore cannot be a valid test in the first place?
Right from the start of mankind's sin there has been no respect for rulership given to mankind by God. There are no scriptural accounts of any issues of sovereignty, or rulership being debated in the Bible. All the scriptures tell is that God is the rightful ruler of the universe—period.
The unfairness of this hypothetical Watchtower’s current claimed “sovereignty issue” is apparent under a little analysis. Before mankind sinned, Satan was apparently the guardian of the earth—pure, perfect in form, wisdom, and beauty. (Ezekiel 28:12–19; Matthew 4:8) After Satan corrupted Adam and Eve he was allowed to keep the rulership of the earth by Yahweh God. At no point did God hand over rulership to Adam and Eve as far as the scriptures tell us.
The problem with the Watchtower's claim of the settling of a “sovereignty issue” is that God has never declared a fix period when man would be allowed to prove his independent worth—and therefore settle the issue of whether God's way and rulership is best, or man's way.
The first downfall of any chance at independent rulership is the fact that Satan rules the earth; he was never removed to give any clean slate for rulership by Adam and Eve, and their children to come. The situation of a fair chance is totally wiped out when we read that God apparently complaisantly watched as many thousands, possibly millions of his sprit sons came to earth and took over, and married those whom they desired. (Genesis 6:2) This then lead to them ruling the earth, and not humans at all. Later we read that the humanised angels and their hybrid children, the Nephilim, became violent and corrupted the earth.—Genesis 6:5, 6
This account in the Bible clearly proves to us that God has never given rulership to man, or pronounced any issue, or test of sovereignty. God allowed his sons to come to earth and totally corrupt it to the point where God eventually acts, very late in the scene, and wipes almost all of humanity out of existence.—Genesis 6:11–13
The situation is made a lot worse for mankind when God cursed mankind, and removed even the imperfect inheritance that they inherited from Adam and Eve of nearly one thousand years of life. Mankind suddenly lost their inheritance and were demoted to live around seventy years—thus increasing their pain, suffering, diseases, ageing, and very early death. All of this proves beyond any doubt that God has never given man his freedom to do as he chooses freely for approximately 6,000 years. Leaving Satan in charge, allowing millions of angels to come to earth, allowing their demonic children to exist and rule, and then cursing mankind to lose 90% of their lifespan all proves that there was never any sovereignty issue; and that man has certainly never been given even the most basic chance to self-rule independently, and free from Satan, demons, and God’s curses.
The situation after the great flood proves even more that God never gave man any respect for self-rule, therefore proving that there never was a sovereignty issue. Soon after the flood, some people chose to build a tower, but instead of just letting them get on with it, and do as they wished; make their own plans, governments, and technology etc. God interfered and destroyed all their plans by confusing their language. (Genesis 11:1–9) The absolute destruction of their plans proves totally that humans were never: “Granted time to develop their societies according to their own ideas….” As the Watchtower society article claims.
God clearly says about man and his abilities: “Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them.” (Genesis 11:6b) Showing that man's achievements would be without limit, and a success. This also shows that God absolutely refused to allow man to do as he wills, or to self-rule; thus showing also that there is no sovereignty issue in the process of being settled. Once the language had been split in to many, this would also have had some influence on national wars and conflicts, making it all the more impossible for man to succeed.
The problems get far worse in the 20th century [according to the Watchtower] when God cast down Satan and the fallen angels to the earth. The scriptures clearly tell us that this will bring terrible suffering and woe to mankind. (Revelation 12:12) We are also told: “We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) All of these things completely prove beyond any doubt that God never had an issue with sovereignty, and has never allowed mankind any chance at independent self-rule.
Therefore, I cannot understand why the Watchtower society claims there was a sovereignty issue, and that: “God's Sovereignty Asserted Once and for all time, this tragic experiment in independence from God has demonstrated that rulership by humans apart from him can never succeed. Only God's rulership can bring happiness, unity, health, and life.” This is clearly not the case at all, and never has been the case as the inspired scriptures prove perfectly.
The Watchtower claims that God has now settled the issue, but we can see this is most certainly not the case at all, and never was. The only issue that has been demonstrated is that of Satan's rulership, and its failure to bring peace and prosperity to mankind. Unfortunately, we will never know how far man could have gone if left to his own devices for 6,000 years. It will always be an unanswered question, especially when God said of man: "Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them."—Genesis 11:6b
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I've been studying for about a year now...
by Meow921 ini've been studying with the jw's for about a year now.
i know that by nature (or nurture!
) i have an addictive personality so i have tried to be real careful that i'm doing the right thing by getting involved with them.
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Nemesis
Hi Meow,
Here is some advice straight from the Watchtower's literature:No matter how sincerely you may feel that you too have the truth, have you compared the teachings of your church with the “holy writings,” the Bible, to see if they agree with it? Is your religion the same as Timothy’s, as Paul’s, as that of Jesus? What if, after making an honest investigation, you found that your religion were no longer holding fast to the original Christianity taught by Jesus Christ? Would you not reasonably make a change? In fact, if, after learning for a certainty that your present religion did not please God, you did not make a change, would not this be a sin in itself? The holy writings tell us: “ If one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.”—Jas. 4:17. Many sincere persons have made such an honest investigation and have taken the big step of changing their religion. As you compare their experiences with what you yourself have observed in your religion, it may help you make an honest appraisal of your way of worship. We sincerely hope it will.” (Watchtower 1970, 1 Oct. p. 581)
The Catholic Church occupies a very significant position in the world and claims to be the way of salvation for hundreds of millions of people. Any organization that assumes that position should be willing to submit to scrutiny and criticism. All who criticize have the obligation to be truthful in presenting the facts and fair and objective in assessing such. In both respects we try to live up to that obligation.—ED.” (Awake! 22 August 1984, p. 28)
Therefore, how will you respond when pointed statements are made about false religious teachings and corrupt practices? Will you immediately condemn the person or organization making the exposé? Do you feel it is all right to teach lies and misrepresent God’s Word, but wrong to expose the error? Contrary to what some may think, it is not unkind and unloving to lay bare falsehood and corruption… Therefore, it is right and proper to speak out strongly against falsehood and corruption. A person or organization that, in imitation of Jesus Christ, has the courage to do so deserves attention and respect. (Watchtower 1966, 1 March, p. 132)
We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination. It should be the sincere desire of every one of us to learn what God’s will is for us, and then to do it.—John 8:32. (The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life 1968 & 1981 p.13)
IF YOU were on trial in a court of law, would it be fair if only your opponent was allowed to present evidence? No, you would surely want the court to hear your side of the matter… Reasonable persons agree that the only fair method is to examine the evidence on both sides, both for and against a disputed theory. That is how one arrives at the truth. (Awake! 1973, 22 October, p. 6)
WHAT results when a lie is let go unchallenged? Does not silence help the lie to pass as truth, to have freer sway to influence many, perhaps to their serious harm? …WHAT results when a lie is let go unchallenged? Does not silence help the lie to pass as truth, to have freer sway to influence many, perhaps to their serious harm? (Watchtower 1973, 15 January, p. 15)
Knowing these things, what will you do? It is obvious that the true God, who is himself “the God of truth” and who hates lies, will not look with favor on persons who cling to organizations that teach falsehood. (Psalm 31:5; Proverbs 6:16-19; Revelation 21:8) And, really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you?” (Is This Life All There Is? 1974, p. 46)
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I've been studying for about a year now...
by Meow921 ini've been studying with the jw's for about a year now.
i know that by nature (or nurture!
) i have an addictive personality so i have tried to be real careful that i'm doing the right thing by getting involved with them.
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Nemesis
Meow:
If you are still there and reading this, take a look at this site, it’s all quotes from the Watch Tower. It will give you a history lesson in how they have changed their doctrines, and especially after their false prophecies do not happen they backtrack and minimise.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/dates.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/dates2.html
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The most strangest sounds I ever heard ........
by TheOldHippie ini had an experience last night which was the strangest thing i have heard / felt for years ............. i had shared a bottle of white wine with my wife (i know that "tunes down" the whole thing, but man!
half a bottle of wine produces nothing like that ....), she went upstairs to go to bed, it was 10:45 at night, and i let the dog out in the garden for her usual you-know-what.
25 metres away is a small road, there are houses around, and 50 metres down to my left another small road departs.. i had been out 10 seconds, when suddenly very loud noices were all around, like - please don't laugh - santa claus with his sleigh came down the road, like sleigh bells sort of, but much louder and more distinct.
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Nemesis
Might it be an LSD/Mushrooms flashback?
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Losing my Religion......
by flower inwell at 29 years old, after a lifelong relationship/belief in/association with a higher power i called god, here i am very close to taking an athiestic or agnostic approach to the rest of my life.
it really hit me the other day although my doubts have been there but i just have been forcing myself to ignore them because i was afraid to give up that religious part of me because its all that i have ever been and i was afraid of the unknown.
but i realized after getting through another one of those weeks from hell that it makes no difference how much i pray or how much i believe.
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Nemesis
Flower: (((Big Hug)))
But I realized after getting through another one of those weeks from hell that it makes no difference how much I pray or how much I believe. Nothing in my life changes one way or the other based on my religious or spiritual activity. Whatever happens, good or bad, is going to happen whether or not I pray or 'trust in God' or try to live a Christian life. So really, what is the point?
The point is flower you are not supposed to have a relationship with God for purely selfish reasons—isn’t that what Satan charged Job with? “Let some shit happen and Job will curse you to your face.” (Paraphrased) What do you gain if you curse God and reject him? He wants you to learn to cope with life and gain in wisdom. He will not fix it all now, as much of what we experience is there to learn from: “True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but grievous; yet afterward to those who have been trained by it, it yields peaceable fruit, namely, righteousness.” (Hebrews 12:11) Life on earth now is a massive learning curve, leaving God when you need him won’t make life any easier, or remove the problems—problems are there to make you wiser, and more empathic to other’s suffering also.
It’s a cheesy saying—but if it doesn’t kill you, it will only make you stronger—eventually!
I was watching a programme today on the History channel about the Roman Gladiators, and Emperors. Part of it was all about the sickening evil they did to the Christians in the Coliseum, how they were mauled to death by wild animals, and tortured, burned alive, and mutilated. It was truly awful! I am so glad I wasn’t alive then, or in their shoes—I really did count my blessings. I have a roof over my head, my health, and food on the table, reasonable security—freedom, and the sun on my face!
Flower: Life is about growing and going to higher levels, you are just experiencing a new level, don’t let the pain deceive you. You will become stronger, and God will guide to you a stronger more self sufficient level—don’t give up before you have got there! Ask him for wisdom and insight—ask for endurance and inner peace, don’t give up, life will change, and the cycle will turn.
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My Thoughts: Satan's Defection and Mankin...
by Ephanyminitas in[note: this is an excerpt from a paper that i wrote a few months back.
i thought that i'd share it here.
realize that i'm a -- er, a non-thiest/humanist, so references to god are tongue-in-cheek.
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Nemesis
Hi Ephanyminitas and welcome:
Could you show me where the Bible says that God is Omniscient, as you claim? The Greek word Pas doesn’t give any evidence of an infinite application, so I was wondering why you thought God was Omniscient?
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I've been studying for about a year now...
by Meow921 ini've been studying with the jw's for about a year now.
i know that by nature (or nurture!
) i have an addictive personality so i have tried to be real careful that i'm doing the right thing by getting involved with them.
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Nemesis
AvailableLight:
No matter how clever wording may be, if something is the truth it is indisputable. Don't you think this would be especially the case where God's word the Bible is concerned? Therefore if the JWs really have the true religion, it wouldn't matter what any "apostate" had to say.
What you said there is so very true!
Meow921:
Here are a few scriptures from the New World Translation that are pertinent:
“Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord”—Ephesians 5:10
“Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.”—1 Thessalonians 5:21
“Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith, keep proving what YOU yourselves are.”—2 Corinthians 13:5
“Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.”—1 Timothy 4:16
“Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps”—Proverbs 14:15And the best one that proves that no one on earth, or in the Spirit realm could ruin your relationship with God or Christ, [Obviously including Ex-Witness’ literature]:
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”—Romans 8:38, 39
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Satan's Dirty Deed in 1914
by Yadirf insatans dirty deed in 1914
the poster bjc2012 got me a little perturbed, not much, but a little.
he wrote:.
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Nemesis
I don’t know why anyone is replying to Yardirf—it’s very obvious he is just trying to get as many posts as possible to put his posting figure up. Just look above for an example, [10:46, 10:48, and 10:51] all posted as separate posts instead of one, just like many others of his, all without any meaning at all! And I’m sure he will try and milk a few more out of this one!
Hey, Simon, It would be funny if you reset Yardirf’s post counter to zero! At least then he might post something with at least a molecule of substance instead of just pages of empty filler!