today i was thinking about how the 1st century christians had several congregations in place as well as a governing body.
so i'm wondering is that a valid reason for there to be a current governing body today?.
also i've been contemplating the issue of preaching.
Hi Leander,
For a good explanation showing there was no first century Governing Body, read pages 38 to 68 (chapter 3, Centralised Authority) of Ray Franz’s book ‘In Search of Christian Freedom’. And for your other question about the preaching, read pages 207 to 236 (Chapter 7, From House to House) of the same book. You will find excellent points of reasoning there that should answer your questions.
i' so tired of this.
sometime, i'd just like to say goodbye cruel world but, it would be too easy to do this.
when i was in the borg, they were telling me that when someone go out of the org, he have a lot of problems and that's exactly what happen to me.
You will be just fine Nick,
It takes time . . . your feelings will change, they will not last forever. Try and break the habit of negative thinking, let it out and then go and do something that you will enjoy. Walk in the park, ice cream sundae, or a trip to the cinema etc. Then try and make some new buddies, join a gym, or club, as the months go by you will get to know the real you! And he’s a fine person! Getting to know you can be scary, but take it all as a leaning curve—all experiences in life can be used positively, you gain wisdom that you would never have got from just reading about it! As time goes you will feel far happier, never judge reality on a moment when you are feeling sad, it will pass, and you will grow.
Take care Nick,
todays newspapers are full of the le pen story.
much concern is being voiced that right-wing organisations will ride on this story to make their own agendas more widely known, ie, send all the immigrants back home, britain for the british, sod off everyone else!.
now i personally love different cultures.
Hello Abaddon,
I believe it is this attitude in the absorbing culture which can increase the time it takes for integration, as if the absorbing culture doesn't actually regard all people as equal, then the integrating culture will be alienated. Of course, in such a situation, even though it's the absorbing cultures 'fault', it is the integrating culture that gets the blame.Also, if the absorbing culture can choose what aspects of other cultures it can adopt (wine with meals, spaghetti, pizza, curry, whatever), what the hell is wrong with the integrating culture choosing what aspects of the absorbing culture it adopts? Do you expect 60 year-old illiterate Bengali women to learn English, read the sun, watch Eastenders and eat fish and chips? What about freedom of choice? Does that apply only if you're in the absorbing culture?
Point one, I do blame the immigrants for not integrating, they have massive resources and help here. I don’t know how long you have been out of the UK, but you need to take a closer look. As for eating British food, or watching crap like Eastenders, that is totally irrelevant. You have missed the point of what I was saying. I’m in favour of free choice, they keep all they want and need from their culture. But what they do need to do is learn about the country they live in and have some respect for it—learn its basic history, culture, and get to know the native people. Don’t expect the natives to show an interest in their culture and then hypocritically reject all things native as worthless, or expect the natives to pay for your festival and then complain when a native wants their festival in their native country, and call them racist, or nationalistic!
As for “equal” depends what you mean. As a human, yes. As deserving all the inheritance of the English have worked for over the past 1,600 years, No. Would the new canteen worker be due the same pay as the 50 years faithful managing director who built the company from scratch with blood, sweat, and hard work? No! Ethnic monitory groups have massive help far more than white natives ever get; they have absolutely no excuse at all for not making the effort to use these resources.
Also, third, fourth etc. generations become increasingly integrated... bigotry diminishes, they are more accepted, and as they are more accepted they can integrate more without losing their identity. And they are entitled to their cultural identity . . . then why is it wrong for Hindus to celebrate Devali, for Muslim girls to wear trousers instead of skirts, or to go to Bollywood movies? What's wrong with being a Rasta?I disagree Abaddon, the biggest problems we have with certain groups are not the first generation, but the last. West-Indian immigrants we invited over in the 50s to offer them employment as we lost so many young men in the war are not the problem. It’s their children, and grandchildren who are causing the massive upsurge in crime in the UK, especially in London. Aged first generation Muslim Pakistanis are not the cause of problems either (except the financial cost), it’s their future generations who many turn into white hating racists (Bradford riots being a perfect example). The opposite of integration is happening, the last generation are the cause of so many problems and crime, not the first generation.
As for “entitled to their cultural identity” of course they are! AND SO AM I! and that’s the problem, just the hint of mentioning ‘English’ is almost a swear word, left wing bigots with endless rhetoric expect the natives to absorb and celebrate all things ‘ethnic’ and if we reverse that, and ask immigrants and their descendants to do the same we get called racist! They don’t want to “contaminate” their culture with anything English, or British, but we are suppose to trash our rich heritage and take on theirs in a “multicultural Britain”. I despise this racially biased hypocrisy! I have many friends, and work colleagues from many cultures, and I take and interest in their culture, but take great offence when I’m told by some white hating left wing black, or Pakistani group etc., that I’m not allowed to celebrate my English heritage, history, and culture because that might offend some ‘ethnic’ minority!
As for the carnival, there is no evidence that they generate anywhere near £4,000,000 over two days. Not to mention the sting of hundreds of thousands of pounds that Kensington and Chelsea’s council tax payers have to fork our for the cleanup bill. By the way, that £4,000,000 was just for the policing! Why? Because of a predictable handful of blacks youth causing robberies, stabbings, and murders.
I'd also like to see your comments on the social justice of attracting cheap workers from ex-colonies to settle in the UK, and then acting like them and their children are in the same group as political refugees when the work climate changesThe reason we invited Jamaicans, and West-Indians here after the war was not for “cheap labour” but because we had a labour shortage as we lost so many of our young men in WWII. I don’t put them in the same category as asylum seekers, or their descendants. Their descendants are one of the UK’s and London’s biggest problems. As for Muslim Bangladeshis, when did we invite them? They arrived en mass in the late 70s, and early 80s. As for Hindu Indians, I put them in a completely different category, they are not like the Pakistani Muslims, or the Bangladeshi Muslims, and all the Indians I know hate being lumped in the same catch all category of “Asians*”. Indians tend to get off their arse and have respect for education that they inherited from British rule in India. They are a world apart from what are now Muslim Bangladeshis, and Pakistanis.
* For non-British, the UK term ‘Asian’ is very different from the US usage, it’s almost exclusively used for just Indians, Bangladeshis, and Pakistanis. Occasionally they use ‘North West Asians’, the term normally used for East Asians, is ‘Oriental’. Don’t ask me why the extremely narrow usage came about, I don't agree with it, as people from all differing countries in Asian are a world apart.
Frequently people make statements about immigrants not contributing. In the short-term, yes, maybe this is true . . . Do people seriously think an immigrant will say "No, I'll sit here with my thumb up my arse" if he's treated like an equal, has equal opportunities, and doesn't have to read malinformed opinions in the press about how people like him are a menece to Society?But how long is short term? Bangladeshis have been net dependants ever since they got here! They cost the economy billions each year in benefits, housing, healthcare and welfare etc. as do second and third generation, Pakistanis, and West-Indians. As for equal opportunities, that is a joke if you see how many groups, housing associations [for just blacks, Bangladeshis etc.], free college courses, healthcare, counselling, and all the others organisations that are there are to help them. Far, far more than any white native ever gets. Did you know out of London’s hundreds of housing associations, there is not one single one for native whites, but there are dozens exclusively for non-whites! As for “menace to society”, you need to look at the crime figures, blacks are number one for violent street robbery, murder, gun crime, race hate attacks, and the Muslim youths are a close second. On just race hate attacks 165,000 (65%) in the year 2000 were committed by non-white ethnic minorities against whites! That's less than 5% of the UK's population causing 65% of all race hate attacks. When broken down to race it gets worse as for every 1 white racist in the white population there are 45 black racists in the black population! 4,500% more racist in the black community is no joke. Muggings, robberies, and murders are also on a massively disproportionately level commited by blacks above what they are for whites regardless of the socio-economic level.
I can honestly say that it is unrealistic to expect your 60-year-old Bengali, Bangladeshi, Gujerati or indeed Martian woman to just up and learn English given the level of goverment supportThat is totally untrue Abaddon, they get massive help. There are over 100 colleges that give free English courses to all non-native speakers just in London. There is massive funding for them to get on with life here. They have mountains of literature translated in their own languages, and countless organisations that help them become literate, and integrate. I will tell you what is one of the problems, besides needing to get off their arse, it’s their Muslim husbands who dislike their wives getting an education. They won’t let them go and do a college course, and make pals, learn a skill, or just make friends on some hobby course (there are literally thousands of courses that they can get for free.) And you know what happens when “white” people try and help the women in these situations? we get called racist! Why? For interfering with “their customs and religion”, if we sit back and leave them to it we get called racist for not helping—catch 22! Meanwhile we pay out billions to keep them in benefits, housing, and free healthcare and all the other advantages they get with the privileges of living in England. Do we ever get any thanks for being the most generous country on earth? NO. We just get labelled racist or any other ad-hominem for just speaking the truth, or even wanting to discuss the problems!
todays newspapers are full of the le pen story.
much concern is being voiced that right-wing organisations will ride on this story to make their own agendas more widely known, ie, send all the immigrants back home, britain for the british, sod off everyone else!.
now i personally love different cultures.
Englishman, warning! Portuguese is one of the hardest languages to learn, but at least with Portuguese you will also be able to comprehend 85% or more of Spanish, but the reverse is not so if you only learned Spanish.
One nice thing about Madeirans is they are still like we were 50 years ago, quite a conformist society on the outside (they are 90% Catholics). And everyone looks the part, as they are some of the best dressed people you will ever see, and the island is usually spotlessly clean, and has a very low crime rate. Unfortunately for them poverty is a way if life for many, and many will spend their last penny on stylish clothes just to ‘look the part’ and go home with no food. Even the tramps are well dressed and polite, it’s true! You will love it if you go to live there, the climate is perfect all year, and you have the cool mountains if you get too warm in the summer. What kind of business are you thinking of starting there?
todays newspapers are full of the le pen story.
much concern is being voiced that right-wing organisations will ride on this story to make their own agendas more widely known, ie, send all the immigrants back home, britain for the british, sod off everyone else!.
now i personally love different cultures.
Hello LDH,
You said:
Is it just me, or does it seem to others that the only cultures mentioned are the darker complexions? Perhaps if you live in England, you can't tell that the RUSSIAN guy is also a welfare slacker--just because you have the same color skin. So, then he escapes criticism and evil looks all day merely because he was lucky enough to be born with white skin?!?!?It’s not based on skin colour, as I clearly mentioned Albanians and asylum seekers—the majority of whom are white skinned. Yes we get Africans, North Asians, but many who are Albanian, Romanian, Croatian, Russian, etc. and they also defraud the system. Romanians gangs of pickpocket children are well known in certain parts of inner London.
What about the:
Albanians
Yugoslavians
Croations?
It’s not about skin colour; it’s about culture, and attitude. For example we have many ‘on the lose’ Jamaican Yardy serial killers who are (according to Jamaican, UK, and US intelligence) in London. Yardies also being the main cause of gun crime to the capital. It’s not because they have dark skin, it's because they have a terrible cultural attitude to life shown by them having one of the highest murder rates in the world, and when they come here they bring all that with them, just like everyone takes their background with them. Unfortunately their culture is very unlikely to be any different just because they then arrive here in the UK.
“Of course, my personal opinion is that you don't have the right to bitch about the government you live under if you're not personally involved. Nemesis?!?!?!”
Not sure what you mean by that? This is my country, I pay tax, and I have a say where my tax goes. My country’s culture, and heritage is the most important as this is England. Others who choose to live here should appreciate what a generous country they live in and have some respect for our culture and heritage, instead of force feeding us their culture (including the criminal element, and £4,000,000 carnivals), and then showing no interest in ours, and still expecting us to foot the bill!
PS. This is not the U.S.A. or France.
todays newspapers are full of the le pen story.
much concern is being voiced that right-wing organisations will ride on this story to make their own agendas more widely known, ie, send all the immigrants back home, britain for the british, sod off everyone else!.
now i personally love different cultures.
It’s St. George’s day today, the patron Saint of England!
I was just watching the six o’clock news, and Ken Livingston (Mayor of London) adamantly refused to recognise the St. George’s day or the culture and heritage of the English, yet his racism is tolerated, as is all English bashing, abuse and race hate attacks. Livingston spent £100,000 [$144,914] of Londoner’s money for the Irish celebrating St. Patrick’s Day, and Londoners were conned out of £4,000,000 [$5,796,555] last year for the Notting Hill Carnival [a predominantly black West-Indian carnival]. So how much publicity and money do the English get on their patron saints day? Zero money, and virtually zero publicity, and this is the common rise in abuse of all things English. We get all others cultures forced on us and we have to pay for them, but when we want publicity and recognition for our own culture, history and country, we get zero, and accused of racial overtones, or nationalism—yet, in a few months we will be force fed a black carnival that will cost millions of pounds to police and we have to pay for it! Where is the equality in that? It’s no wonder so many resent certain ethnic communities for their hypocrisy in forcing their culture on us, and expecting us to lap it up, and pay for it! Then refusing to let us [the English] have ours, with constant complaints “well I’m not English so I think it’s racist” only later to expect us to celebrate their culture, and pay for it!
todays newspapers are full of the le pen story.
much concern is being voiced that right-wing organisations will ride on this story to make their own agendas more widely known, ie, send all the immigrants back home, britain for the british, sod off everyone else!.
now i personally love different cultures.
That’s the problem Englishman, we are supposed to accept their culture, morals, ethics, but many (not all) communities don’t accept ours. If you try and get them to be more ‘British’ because they are in Britain as a guest, like learn English for starters and obey the law of the land, since we are paying billions each year to keep them in homes, food, benefits, free medical care, etc. you get called racist by some left wing ignoramuses. They are allowed to separate from the community and form their own isolated communities and reject all things British, spend 30 years here on benefits [welfare] and still not be able to speak English, and we are supposed to say, “oh well that’s fine”, and keep paying out billions of pounds per annum for them to live free lifestyles. But when they try and make you accept their culture, even making it taught in schools, forcing it on TV, and you say “I’m not interested”, you still get called racist, or xenophobic! They can trash all things British, and take our money and homes, and we are just supposed to say: “What wonderful ethnics diversity, welcome, take some more.”
Many communities like the Muslim Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Africans, and West Indians, don’t pay anywhere enough tax to pay for even their own people who claim benefits. They cost the native taxpayers billions every year to give them council houses (housing build by the government from native taxpayers money for those less well off), benefits [welfare], free medical care, free schooling, child benefits, free dental treatment, free prescriptions, free council tax benefit, (council tax is like rates for local services, police, ambulance, street cleaning etc.), free language classes, free college courses—is it any wonder they travel half-way around the world so they cam get all this stuff? Britain and England must be the most generous place to live on earth. I don’t know any country that gives so much and receives bills for billions of pounds in return from many communities ever since they came to England, or Britain 1, 5, 10, or 20-30 years ago, and still Britain is brainwashed by left wing fanatics/propagandists to feel like we have to give more while we have thousands of our own native homeless sleeping rough who get little to nothing, as they are not an immigrants or fake asylum seekers.
The old proverb is coming true; they are ‘biting the hand that feeds them’. I was talking to a Yugoslavian friend about this not long ago, and she said the same happened with the Albanians in her country, they gave them rights they had not earned, helped them, looked after them, and then the Albanians turned on them an try to control everything, then it was too late. You cannot take back the rights you foolishly gave without bloodshed. That is the price of being too generous to those who neither appreciate nor understand how damned lucky they are. A bit like throwing your pearls before swine, your reward is ingratitude and then violence against you, as it’s happening all the time here in Britain, as certain (not all) non-native ethnic groups cause the most crime, hatred, and violence in our society, and we only have ourselves to blame for being so generous and letting them live here and get it all for free.
The worst irony is that one of the hardest working immigrant groups are the Australians, and they are not entitled to any help whatsoever, or permanent residency! If they lose their jobs, they starve, if they lose their private homes, they are left to sleep in the street, and are not allowed any benefits [welfare], they are also not even allowed to go on the housing register to try and wait for a council house! They are one of the hardest working groups and get zero help, and yet the worse most parasitic groups like Muslim Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, West-Indians, Africans, and bogus asylum seekers get it all, and don’t have to lift a finger either!
save yourself with good works.
jesus says that one will inherit eternal life if one does the following things: obey the commandments, and give to the poor all that one owns.
faith is not enough.
Hi Joseph,
I see you have had quite a few posts from others since mine.
In regard to predestination—I have to say I agree with what the Watchtower taught on this in the Insight book, here are the details below. I hope they answer the point you are referring to.
Foreordination of the ‘called and chosen.’ There remain those texts that deal with the Christian “called ones,” or “chosen ones.” (Jude 1; Mt 24:24) They are described as “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God” (1Pe 1:1, 2), ‘chosen before the founding of the world,’ ‘foreordained to the adoption as sons of God’ (Eph 1:3-5, 11), ‘selected from the beginning for salvation and called to this very destiny’ (2Th 2:13, 14). The understanding of these texts depends upon whether they refer to the foreordination of certain individual persons or whether they describe the foreordination of a class of persons, namely, the Christian congregation, the “one body” (1Co 10:17) of those who will be joint heirs with Christ Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—Eph 1:22, 23; 2:19-22; Heb 3:1, 5, 6.
If these words apply to specific individuals as foreordained to eternal salvation, then it follows that those individuals could never prove unfaithful or fail in their calling, for God’s foreknowledge of them could not prove inaccurate and his foreordination of them to a certain destiny could never miscarry or be thwarted. Yet the same apostles who were inspired to write the foregoing words showed that some who were “bought” and “sanctified” by the blood of Christ’s ransom sacrifice and who had “tasted the heavenly free gift” and “become partakers of holy spirit . . . and powers of the coming system of things” would fall away beyond repentance and bring destruction upon themselves. (2Pe 2:1, 2, 20-22; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-29) The apostles unitedly urged those to whom they wrote: “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail”; also, “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (2Pe 1:10, 11; Php 2:12-16) Paul, who was “called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ” (1Co 1:1), obviously did not consider himself individually predestinated to eternal salvation, since he speaks of his strenuous efforts in striving to attain “the goal for the prize of the upward call of God” (Php 3:8-15) and his concern lest he himself should “become disapproved somehow.”—1Co 9:27.
Similarly, “the crown of life” offered such ones is granted subject to their faithfulness under trial until death. (Re 2:10, 23; Jas 1:12) Their crowns of kingship with God’s Son can be lost. (Re 3:11) The apostle Paul expressed confidence that “the crown of righteousness” was “reserved” for him, but he only did so when he was certain that he was nearing the end of his course, having “run [it] to the finish.”—2Ti 4:6-8.
On the other hand, viewed as applying to a class, to the Christian congregation, or “holy nation” of called ones as a whole (1Pe 2:9), the texts previously cited would mean that God foreknew and foreordained that such a class (but not the specific individuals forming it) would be produced. Also, these scriptures would mean that he prescribed, or foreordained, the ‘pattern’ to which all those in due time called to be members thereof would have to conform, all of this according to his purpose. (Ro 8:28-30; Eph 1:3-12; 2Ti 1:9, 10) He also foreordained the works such ones would be expected to carry out and their being tested because of the sufferings the world would bring upon them.—Eph 2:10; 1Th 3:3, 4. (Insight 1988, Vol. 1, p. 859)
save yourself with good works.
jesus says that one will inherit eternal life if one does the following things: obey the commandments, and give to the poor all that one owns.
faith is not enough.
Hello Joseph,
Why do you make posts like this? It’s very simple if you really want the answer. Funny how some who don’t believe find it so hard to master a simple principle.
Salvation is based on whole souled love of God and Christ, and deep mature faith. None of that is a contradiction. True faith will produce works, the works are the result of true faith and love, but cannot be used to earn salvation; no amount of works would ever be enough. That is why salvation is based on love and faith. Salvation is an underserved gift, having true faith and love will gain us the gift from God.
A simple illustration of faith and works, if faith = honesty, and works = actions. (For example) If you claim to be an honest person [have faith] then your honesty will naturally produce good works, i.e. you will act honestly, you will not lie, rob, steal, or defraud. It’s the honesty [faith] that gets God’s approval and the gift of salvation, if it’s truly genuine then the good works will manifest—just like a good tree producing fine fruit.
It’s all very simple Joseph, true love and faith will produce good works as an after effect. The after effect [good deeds] are not the saving agent—faith is, and God’s undeserved kindness will follow.
sorry to bother you guys with this, but someone has asked me for a particular kh address.
.
latte
Why not just phone them and ask—you will probably get some hopelessly unprofessional individual answer the phone, but they should have all the addresses for U.K. Kingdom Halls.
Watch Tower House, The Ridgeway, Mill Hill, London, NW7 1RN
Tel: (0044) 208 906 2211
Here’s a good map link if you want to know where they, and other addresses are:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?P2M?P=NW71RN&Z=1
Main site:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk
