Posts by NeonMadman

28

Demon possessed furniture?? Any scriptural support?

by digderidoo in

jw
friends

i remember instances where we told that the demons could get into the house through furniture or ornaments.

if anyone had a problem in the house with demons, they should remove anything that they may have bought second hand.

i remember one family getting rid of their carpet!.

NeonMadman

So am I to seriously understand that none of you guys have ever had a Ouija board scream as you were burning it? As if...

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

So my question still is: how did the existence of supernatural evolve from something purely natural?

That, in itself is a presupposition, and a presupposition that turns all your other arguments into circular reasoning. You are presuming your conclusion by asking the question. Here's a thought: what if the events surrounding the life of Jesus actually were supernatural?

By the time the story is written down and recopied the transmission is subject to "pious fraud" whereby a perfectly honest persom with no malice aforethought tries to "correct" something and make it more understandable. Scribes did this constantly. The "clarification" makes the new copy changed. Any change is aberration. Aberration is counterfeit. With no originals we cannot possible weed out the layers of centuries of pious fraud by unintentional "helpers".

Well, then, by that standard, we should completely abandon the study of history, since absolutely nothing that has been written down in the past can be relied upon. Most people that I've heard make such an argument would never think of applying it to Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Napoleon or Hitler. THOSE histories are assumed to be accurate. Yet the same process you describe would have taken place in all eras of recorded history. It's only the history surrounding Jesus that people want to bring into question. And that goes back to the presupposition I pointed out a minute ago.

And, by the way, the science of textual criticism has gone a great distance of the way toward determining exactly what was written down in the original autographs of the New Testament. Even Bart Ehrman's work attests to this, if you examine his data apart from the conclusions he draws, which seem clearly agenda-driven. So while we don't actually have the originals, we do know with about 99% certainty what was in them, and the 1% does not affect any major doctrine of Christianity.

The apostles didn't understand a thing Jesus said or taught! That is continuously obvious.

No, that is obviously absurd. There were certainly things they didn't understand, but to say they "didn't understand a thing" is hyperbolic at best. John was present at the crucufixion. Do you really believe that he didn't understand what was happening. Do you think the apostles sat through the Sermon on the Mount and learned nothing at all? Have you ever been in a teaching situation where your student fully understood EVERY SINGLE THING you taught him/her?

What was written came AFTER. The were NOT present for the events in question. Take the garden of Gethsemane, for one instance. They were ASLEEP. Every one of them. Who was listening and copying down Jesus prayer to his father?? Nobody. Nobody at all. It is a fictional construction of a writer and nothing more.

You've cherry-picked a few events that would have had to be filled in either by eyewitness testimony (the apostles, for example, may not have been present when Pilate spoke to Christ, but certainly others must have been from whom they could have heard what was said) or, as the Bible writers would have us believe, by inspiration. But the apostles were present for most of the events recorded about Jesus' life, and they were certainly present at the post-resurrection appearances. The oral tradition that so concerns you was written down within the lifetimes of the apostles and their contemporaries, who could certainly have pointed out any embellishments. Paul at one point stated that there were 500 witnesses to the resurrection, some of whom had died, but most were still alive - in other words, 'go ask them'! It would be pretty hard to get a consistent story out of 500 witnesses if the story had no truth to it.

We have copies allright. Copies that differ. The difference can be traced to alterations in text by "helpful" translators who thought they already KNEW what the text was TRYING to say. They "clarified" it and passed it on. Families of manuscripts contain telltale clues.

Exactly. And that's why we can be virtually certain about the content of the original text. Scholarly studies of the differing manuscripts and comparisons among them show where the alterations occurred, and point us to the wording of the original. And I might point out that these differences are, for the most part, very minor - spelling errors, alternate wordings of the same idea, things like that. One text might say "Jesus Christ" while another says "Christ Jesus," and a third might say "the Lord Jesus Christ" - in the latter case, the word "Lord" would likely have been a scribal insertion, and in the first two, there is no difference in meaning. Only a very few variants actually affect the meaning of the text. There are no manuscripts out there in which Jesus was a Buddhist flute-player who lived in a tree house and wore a cape.

We are obviously not going to get anywhere with this discussion, because you have presumed your conclusion before you started. Your scenario that the Bible texts were not preserved because they were seen as of no value, yet were copied because they were "useful" is self-contradictory. Either the texts were seen as valuable by their original audience - the ones who held the autographs in their hands and read them - or they were not. If they were worth copying, they were certainly worth preserving in the original. Remember, these were documents that claimed to be inspired, to have their origin with God. Surely the original readers understood that and would have preserved them, if they believed the claim. If not, one would think they would have destroyed or suppressed them, as the Romans and Jews tried to do. But someone valued them enough to make thousands of copies and to distribute them widely. However, persecution and the ravages of time did not allow the originals to survive. That's why we don't have them.

Your illustrations about a 1965 Mustang or Elvis memorabilia don't really work, imho. We live in a time of mass communication now. Everybody knows who Elvis was (and everybody knew who he was when he was still performing). People in France, South Africa, and Japan all know who Elvis was, because of mass communication. The only way people in Spain, for example, would have know who Jesus was would be if someone traveled there, through great effort, to tell them about Jesus. That is the way the Gospel spread to the world. Numerous people within the lifetimes of those who knew Jesus personally, within the lifetimes of those who could call out any falsehoods or embellishments, believed the message enough to devote their lives to spreading it, and to die for it if necessary, as many tens of thousands did.

38

"Come Be My Follower" - Christendom is bad for sponsoring charities and feeding the poor - what?

by Bonnie_Clyde in

jw
friends

i just got the "come be my follower" book and am shocked at their illustration on page 186. maybe i'm more shocked that at one time i would have accepted this warped reasoning.. first they quote jesus at matt.

7:21-23: "'lord, lord, did we not...perform many powerful works in your name?

' and yet then i will confess to them: i never knew you!

NeonMadman

"Many today who call themselves Christians might find those word puzzling. Why would Jesus direct such strong words to people who have been performing "many powerful works" in his name? Jehovah's Witnesses have preached throughout the earth, distributed millions pf pieces of literature, sponsored meetings, assemblies and conventions, and performed many other works."

They never asked her to do those jobs; they just wanted their children cared for. her refusal to heed their instructions would infuriate them.

You mean instructions like these?:

Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him: "If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower." (Isn't that the text the title of the book is taken from?)

Gal 2:10 Only we should keep the poor in mind. This very thing I have also earnestly endeavored to do.

Jas 1:27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

Mat 6:3 But you, when making gifts of mercy, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,
Mat 6:4 that your gifts of mercy may be in secret; then your Father who is looking on in secret will repay you.

Mat 25:37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?'
Mat 25:40 And in reply the king will say to them, 'Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.'

Luk 6:38 Practice giving, and people will give to YOU. They will pour into YOUR laps a fine measure, pressed down, shaken together and overflowing. For with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU in return."

Act 20:35 I have exhibited to YOU in all things that by thus laboring YOU must assist those who are weak, and must bear in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, when he himself said, 'There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.'"

Rom 15:26 For those in Mac·e·do'ni·a and A·cha'ia have been pleased to share up their things by a contribution to the poor of the holy ones in Jerusalem.
Rom 15:27 True, they have been pleased to do so, and yet they were debtors to them; for if the nations have shared in their spiritual things, they also owe it to minister publicly to these with things for the fleshly body.

Eph 4:28 Let the stealer steal no more, but rather let him do hard work, doing with his hands what is good work, that he may have something to distribute to someone in need.

Which group is it that is really failing to follow the Master's instructions?

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

First off, the world in Jesus' day was populated by few persons with the money or education to enable them to create, own or even read books.
It was considereded impractical and unnecessary to possess a library at home. It was an oral society. In Judaism, attending synagogue and watching the Rabbi heft the ponderous scroll open to a particular passage an read from it was enough to convince your average Jew that "holy"was
was for formal settings.

Which doesn't really negate anything I said about the NT documents having been circulated widely right from the time they were written. We have thousands of manuscripts, some dating from within decades of the originals. It seems only logical to conclude that, in a time when persecution was common, there were far more copies that have not survived than those that have. The issue is not whether the copies were made for liturgical purposes or for home libraries; the point is that they were made, and that they were made because those making them saw them as valuable, right from the beginning.

As far as martyrs dying for something as PROOF of legitimacy---you have to be kidding right? Those Arab terrorists who flew airliners into the World Trade Center must have proved the Muslim religion is true---by that reasoning!!

Not at all. They were dying for something they had been taught was true, not for something they had personally witnessed. The apostles of Christ were in a position to know whether what they were preaching was true or not. They were present for the events in question. If Jesus was a phony, if someone had stolen the body and faked the resurrection, they were in a position to know about it. Someone might well be willing to die for a lie that they didn't know was a lie, but it would take a lunatic to be willing to die for a lie he knew to be untrue. Unless the Muslims who flew the planes on 9/11 knew Mohammad personally, there is no parallel. That's why I inserted the parenthetical expression in my comment - because I knew you might "parrot" (to use your term) the stock answer to my statement from various atheist writings, and you didn't fail me.

You need to sit down and THINK about what you are regurgitating straight out of Lee Strobel's Case for Christ before you parrot it aloud.

I've never read Strobel's book, so I'm not sure how I could be "parroting" anything from it. I have heard the argument about the Arabs flying planes into the tower from lots of other sources, though, so apparently I'm not the only one capable of parroting.

There is NO HISTORICAL SUPPORT for the fact the autograph copies of the scriptures DO NOT EXIST?

Um, no, that's not what I said. There is no historical support for your assertion that the only possible reason that the autographs do not exist is that they were seen as valueless by those alive when they were created, and were therefore somehow discarded. That position is not only without historical support, it's illogical. If the autographs were not valued in their time so as to be discarded, why would anyone have valued them enough to make copies of them? If your assertion were true, we should have no manuscripts, no copies, no record at all that they ever existed.

Furthermore, there are better reasons to explain why they don't exist, especially in the light of historical accounts that tell us that Christians went to their graves as martyrs rather than give up their manuscripts of Scripture. The Roman government, at times, attempted to wipe out Christianity, and certainly this would have included destroying as many of their documents as possible.

The oral society in Jesus day which embraced the Jesus story as miraculous had come to the end of their rope as Jews. The Jewish religion was on its last viable leg under the corrupt Hasmonean dynasty of Herod and was being torn asunder by the Sicarii on one side and Apocalyptic mystery cults on the other. Accepting Jesus as THE Messianic answer to the problem was practically a no brainer for these persons "willing to die" for their beliefs. The stories they heard purported to represent supernatural miracles as attending the ministry of Jesus. How low or how high was each person's threshold of acceptance of such a statement? How logical, how skeptical, how investigative do you think the average Jewish peasant really was??

An interesting theory, but it strikes me as being ad hoc. It certainly fits the position you wish to advance. Have you any historical evidence for this process among the Jewish Christians? Because all of the early church history with which I am familiar tells a very different story.

34

The Faithful and Discreet WHAT?

by Cold Steel in

i'm sure this has been covered before, so please excuse me if it has.

my questions are:.

how do people know that they're part of the faithful and discreet slave class?how is seniority established?.

NeonMadman

So how does one make it from Joe Bloe member to sitting in an office in Bethel and directing branches of the church?

You have to understand that merely being anointed doesn't guarantee you anything in terms of advancement within the organizational structure. There are plenty of professed anointed just serving in congregations as regular members. The one distinction, for now at least, is that you must be of the anointed to be appointed to the governing body. In terms of advancement in the organization, one would ordinarily start out as a pioneer and then apply for either Bethel service or missionary training at the Gilead School. Then, if you served well, there would likely be further opportunities, such as being a circuit or district overseer, and so on up the line. Each advancement carries greater authority. It's a lot like making advancement in a worldly corporation. You start at the bottom and work hard. Backstabbing as you go doesn't hurt, either. Oh, and, of course, you must be male.

How would one get in at the ground level and work their way up? Must all applicants be of the anointed class or can they be of the earthly class?

Being anointed doesn't make much of a difference at any point that I can tell, except at the very top - as I noted, you need to be anointed to be considered for membership in the governing body.

If any of these leaders visit the local congragations, do they roll out the red carpets for these guys?

Yeah, they are pretty much treated like kings, and the ordinary JW's hang on every word that comes out of their mouths.

Who's the top dog? Surely the church must have one person who makes some of the most crucial decisions.

The "top dog" is the governing body. That is a group of usually 10-12 anointed men who make all of the decisions about the rules and what will be taught. There are, of course, politics within that body, so undoubtedly some members have more pull than others, but there is no one person who is fully in charge. The most power after the governing body is probably vested in the Watchtower's legal department.

And how is "new light" received?

Truly? I think they make it up as they see the need. Supposedly the holy spirit acts in some unspecified manner on the members of the governing body, giving them new understanding. The question is, if that's what is happening, why do they waffle back and forth on some issues so much, and where do the outright falsehoods and false prophecies come from? It's pretty obvious from the organization's history that whatever "spirit" is acting on the leadership to produce their teachings is anything but holy.

17

How Prophecy Succeeds: Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

what do you make of this recent article by george chryssides?.

http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ijsnr/article/viewfile/8147/pdf.

apparently the prophetic failure of jehovah's witnesses has been overdone by opponents.

NeonMadman

The only thing, quietlyleaving, is that the paragraph you cite is rather disingenuous. It almost gives the impression that their prophecies haven't really failed, but that some sort of progression is ongoing, maybe just not exactly according to their calculations. Of the cited dates, at least 1914, 1918 and 1975 were specifically cited as either certain or likely dates for the same event: Armageddon. While 1925 was aimed more directly at the resurrection of the "ancient worthies," this, too was expected as an immediate precursor of Armageddon. So it's not really true in any sense that "these dates are not successive attempts to predict the same event that failed to materialize: they signify different points in a complex end-time calendar."

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

There were countless writings by innumerable persons foisting their opinions off as heavenly and nobody paid any attention.

True enough. However, that does not appear to have been the case with the documents of the New Testament. They were copied far and wide, very early in church history. The apostles and many of their successors became martyrs for what they believed (and the apostles would have been in a position to know if they were lying - might not be worth dying for a lie that they knew to be a lie). It's simply absurd to suggest that the original autographs were simply unimportant and discarded as of no value, and there is no historical support for such a position. Every historical record we have tells us that the early Christians were zealous in spreading the Word.

Of course you will believe what supports your own view.

Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking when I read your original post in this thread. While I often disagree with your positions, I usually expect better arguments from you.

The original tablets of Moses? Gone.
The jar of manna? Gone.
The Ark of the Covenant? Gone.

How many verifiable artifacts do we actually have from corresponding periods of history? By "verifiable," I mean artifacts that can be specifically identified with recorded events or persons? Do we have Nebuchadnezzar's old toilet paper rolls? Perhaps a salt shaker that belonged to the Buddha? It seems to me that you are imposing a standard of proof for "holy" artifacts that you would not require of any other type of artifact or area of history. Holy or not, the vast majority of artifacts do not survive for thousands of years, especially when significant efforts are made to destroy them. You may recall that the Jewish Temple was destroyed not once, but twice and was looted of its valuables on other occasions . Is it possible that that might explain the missing "holy" artifacts, and not that someone simply thought they were junk and decided to recycle them?

57

Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry in

ever searched for nostalgia items, collectibles or antiques on ebay, craig's list or some such venue?.

a lot of junk has become valuable with the passage of time.. yes, junk.. gradually it seemed to gather a mysterious inflation of valuation.. the items themselves receive wear and tear but they way they are regarded takes on an almost awesome patina of wonderful.. .

i'll give you an example.. i loved to play cowboy when i was a young kid; especially gunslinger/fast draw style.. my favorite guns were made by stallion.

NeonMadman

You can't buy original autograph manuscripts of the Bible on Ebay....NONE exist because they had no VALUE in atuality OR somebody would have fought to preserve them. They were just more STUFF at one time.

Please. The Christian church, very early on, went through priods of vicious persecution where people were giving their lives to retain biblical manuscripts. Doesn't it seem more likely that the originals failed to survive the persecutions than that people who were willing to die for the Word of God decided they were of no value and used them as kindling?

34

The Faithful and Discreet WHAT?

by Cold Steel in

i'm sure this has been covered before, so please excuse me if it has.

my questions are:.

how do people know that they're part of the faithful and discreet slave class?how is seniority established?.

NeonMadman

How do people know that they're part of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class?

The usually cited text is Romans 8:16: "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children" (NWT). They just KNOW, because the Holy Spirit causes them to know. Unfortunately for the JW position, there is nothing in the context of that passage (or anywhere in Romans) that states or implies that such 'bearing witness' by the Spirit is characteristic of only a limited number of Christians, to the exclusion of other Christians. The two "classes" that Paul speaks about in Romans are those who live by the flesh (who are not of God and face condemnation) and those who live by the Spirit. No room in this chapter for earthly and heavenly classes.

How is seniority established?

I don't know that seniority is really relevant among the JW anointed.

How are they so certified by JW leaership?

They aren't. They simply declare themselves to be of the anointed class, generally by partaking of the elements of Communion at the Memorial. there are also a few internal forms (like pioneer and Bethel applications) where they may have to check off a box indicating which class they belong to.

Don't many people consider this sort of thing to be self appointment?

Yes, and I'm one of them.

Is one generally considered to be part of an elevated status to be in that class?

Yes and no. Many individuals among the "other sheep" class of JW's tend to give greater honor to those who profess anointing. However, recent statements in the Watchtower appear to be discouraging that. The organization has to walk a fine line in trying to prevent individual members of the F&DS class from gaining prominence in the congregations, while still maintaining the absolute authority of the F&DS as a group.

Is this class the only one that actually receives the emblems of the sacrament/communion?

Yes. And they take a purely symbolic view of Communion, so that they would see no actual presence of Christ in the elements, not even a spiritual presence as in the Reformed tradition. Those who profess to be of the "other sheep" class refuse the elements as they are passed among the congregation.

What if one or more of them claimed to receive a communication from God?

They'd probably either be regarded as nutcases or disfellowshipped as apostates, just like non-anointed Witnesses.

How does one become part of the Faithful and Discreet Slave leadership?

Years of faithful slavery and lots of brown-nosing.

How is one expelled from that class?

One is not expelled from the class as such, but anointed Witnesses can be disfellowshipped from the organization if they violate the rules, just like non-anointed Witnesses can. Should that happen to an anointed Witness who is later reinstated, that person remains part of the anointed class. Only Jehovah knows whether the person has become so hardened as to commit the unforgiveable sin, and if the person has done that, Jehovah needs to choose a replacement anointed person so that the number of 144,000 doesn't come up short. Apparently this happens a lot, because new anointed seem to be popping up left and right these days.

Hope this helps. I may decide to use the above material (anonymously, of course) on the Q&A page of my website (www.dispelthedarkness.org). Hope you don't mind if I use your questions, but I think they are a good series of questions for helping people who are not so familiar with the JW's to understand this doctrine.

17

How Prophecy Succeeds: Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

what do you make of this recent article by george chryssides?.

http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ijsnr/article/viewfile/8147/pdf.

apparently the prophetic failure of jehovah's witnesses has been overdone by opponents.

NeonMadman

I'm printing out the article to read later, so I'm posting this based on a quick skim and comments that have been made here.

It does seem to me, though, that there is a sense in which prophecy has succeeded for the JW's. It has gotten them lots of new members and kept the existing members in a constant frenzy of works. As long as the members are convinced that Armageddon is right around the corner, they keep on slaving away and tend not to question things. When it starts to look like Armageddon might be a long way off, many start to scratch their heads and ask themselves why they are doing all this work, anyway? The prime example of the latter is the late 1970s, when the 1975 prediction had gone down the tubes and the numbers of publishers actually started to decrease for a few years.

That said, I'm not sure how anyone can make a credible defense of the Watchtower's prophetic record, in light of their 100% failure rate and their frequent claims to prophetic status, as well as the mandatory acceptance of each prophecy as it is issued under the threat of disfellowshipping.