NeonMadman

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Posts by NeonMadman

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  20

  WT declares JWs are not "Great Crowd"

  by irondork in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  huh?.

  okay, the thread title was a stretch, but not by much.. after these things i saw, and, look!

  a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb..." revelation 7:9. sooo..... every time the wts releases it's annual report, it is declaring the total number of jehovah's witnesses, a crowd that can most certainly be numbered, as not being the "great crowd" mentioned at revelation 7:9

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  NeonMadman

  Technically, their teaching is that the "great crowd" is made up of those who survive Armageddon. Therefore, the body of JWs at any given moment before Armageddon is not the "great crowd," since many current JWs may die or prove unfaithful before Armageddon comes. Also, some of the current membership of the JWs are among those professing to be of the anointed, so they would also not be part of the "great crowd." Since the end is always 'any minute now,' we should be able to presume a close correspondence between the current body of JWs with the earthly hope and the "great crowd," but the two are not identical. Since no one actually knows who will and will not survive Armageddon, it's true from their viewpoint that no man can number the "great crowd."
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  144

  Does God Command Christians To Go From Door To Door Preaching The Gospel?

  by Bangalore in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does god command christians to go from door to door preaching the gospel?.

  source:http://www.thercg.org/questions/p070.a.html.

  based on a quick reading and misinterpretation of acts 20:20, many believe that the apostle paul preached the gospel of the kingdom from house to house, to those who were unconverted.

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  NeonMadman

  Wow. The disciples didn't preach door to door but they would preach from private home to private home

  I didn’t say “from private home to private home.” I said “in private homes.” One does not equate to the other, as I pointed out. As I said, going to people’s homes does not equate to knocking randomly at the doors of strangers. The disciples preached everywhere they went, whether on the street, in synagogues, or in the marketplace. And, just possibly, they may have preached from house to house at times. That was very much in harmony with the technology of the day. But as others have pointed out on this thread, they also rode donkeys and wore sandals everywhere they went, and I haven’t seen any JWs doing that lately.

  I don’t believe that we can state with certainty that their preaching was definitely from house to house, or that such a method was even their primary method. We read far more instances of the disciples preaching in public places than in private homes. I find it just as easy to believe that the private homes in which they preached and taught were those of people whom they had met in public places who showed interest during their public proclamation as to believe that they were engaged in some sort of door to door canvassing. More so, really, because in those days, the streets and marketplaces were where you found people, and a message proclaimed in the public square tended to become known throughout the town fairly quickly. Much more efficient than going to houses one by one.

  How are the disciples to search out in a city who is deserving and who is not? How can Jesus say the entire city will be judged on Judgement Day if the disciples only went to talk to a few people here and there in private homes? Also, notice that Jesus says "wherever anyone does not listen to YOUR words...on going out of THAT HOUSE". Now if Jesus' disciples are just teaching people in their private homes, why would the people they are teaching not listen to their words? Again, why is the entire city/village going to be judged on Judgement Day if all the disciples are doing is teaching/preaching in private homes?

  As I pointed out above, one possibility is that they would contact people in public places and then visit with them in their homes upon invitation. We aren’t talking about Manhattan here. Cities back then were much smaller than cities today, and there were many fewer distractions in the form of entertainment than we have today. Ephesus was a good sized city for the time - I visited its ruins just last month - but no bigger than an average small town today. When someone came to town with a new teaching and proclaimed it in public, word got around very effectively. People came to follow Jesus in droves to hear His preaching, because word had gotten around. Surely you aren’t going to try to make the case that the disciples went around Jerusalem from door to door passing out invitations to the Sermon on the Mount?

  The potential for rejection that Jesus mentions does not eliminate this possibility; as a JW there were many times that my message was ultimately rejected by someone who initially showed interest. Admittedly, another possibility is that the disciples did actually preach from house to house. I’m not trying to make the case that they absolutely did not do so. My point is that there is not explicit enough indication in the Bible to be certain that they absolutely did, as JWs argue. Remember, the question we are discussing is not whether the disciples preached from house to house, but whether God commands Christians to preach in this specific manner. JWs would argue that, if the apostles preached this way, modern Christians are also required to follow this exact method, with God disapproving anyone who fails to do so, no matter how zealous he may be about spreading the message in other ways.

  Paul is summarizing events that haven take place over a period of three years. That is why Paul says "YOU well know how from the first day that I stepped into the [district of] Asia I was with you the whole time.." Now if Paul is talking about his preaching to the elders, this statement must be false. On Paul's first day in the district of Asia there were no disciples. There was no congregation. There were no elders. How could Paul have been with the elders, preaching to them in their private homes from the first day he came into Asia? Also, why does Paul mention opposition from the Jews regarding his preaching. How were the Jews opposing and setting plots against Paul if he was simply going to the private homes of the elders? It is very obvious whose interpretation doesn't make nearly as much sense.

  Sorry, but your timeline is flawed. The three-year visit that is ending here in Acts 20 was not Paul’s first visit to Ephesus, and it is untrue that there were no disciples in Ephesus when he arrived. According to Insight on the Scriptures (v. 1, p. 735), Paul had visited Ephesus previously in 52 C.E. and then left, promising to return if it was God’s will. During his absence, Aquila and Pricilla remained in Ephesus, along with Apollos, whom they taught. Paul returned in the winter of 52/53 and then proceeded to stay for 3 years. So it is apparent that there were disciples in Ephesus prior at least to Paul’s second visit. Now, if I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that in one three-year visit, Paul took Ephesus from having no Christians at all to having a church with elders, and that therefore his teaching must have included house to house canvassing so as to make converts, some of whom would later become elders, but that his reference to teaching “publicly and from house to house” would refer to all phases of this three-year visit. But your premise is wrong. There were Christians, and almost certainly at least a rudimentary church in Ephesus before his arrival. He did much to grow and develop it, but it wasn’t as if he walked into the city, started converting pagans and built a church where there was no prior Christian presence at all. So I would maintain what I said – Paul’s comments in Acts 20:20 refer to his actions toward “you” – the elders with whom he was speaking and not the church as a whole.

  Incidentally, I find it interesting that the emphasis in Acts is placed on Paul’s preaching in the synagogue and the school auditorium at Tyrannus – public places – and not particularly on any supposed house-to-house campaign (Acts 19:8-10). Note that verse 10 states that “This [reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus] continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.” Not through random door-knocking, but through preaching in public places.

  We CAN assert this as conclusive because we have clear instructions from Jesus to his disciples about searching out who is deserving in a city/village. "If anyone does not take you in or listen to your words..on going out of THAT HOUSE.." There is nothing ambiguous about these instructions. These weren't instructions to go and preach to people in private homes, they were to search the entire city for deserving ones. How could this be done if they did not go door to door?

  As I pointed out above, and as the Scriptures seem to bear out, the disciples preached in public places. This is certain. There are dozens of citations where the disciples went to marketplaces, synagogues, public squares and other public locations in order to evangelize. They went wherever people were to be found. Let’s face it, if their primary work was preaching from house to house, why did both Jesus and the apostles face so many attacks from angry mobs? How does a mob gather if you are speaking to one person at a time, in the privacy of his own home? Clearly, their primary means of communicating the Word was by public proclamation. Whether they supplemented this with any sort of door-to-door canvassing is uncertain, but even if they did, it was certainly never commanded by Jesus as THE method for Christians to use in preaching – which, again, is supposed to be the question we are addressing.

  We live in a day when it is not seen as socially appropriate in many areas for strangers to approach the doors of people they do not know. This has changed just within my lifetime. I am now 60 years old; when I was young, we had a man come to the house regularly to deliver milk, and another who brought ice for our icebox three times a week. Salesman used to ply their wares from door to door, the Fuller Brush Man came by once a month or so, and occasionally, someone who was down on his luck would knock on the door and ask for a handout. All of this was taken in stride by householders; it was the normal way of things, nobody worried about it. But rising violent crime and differing social conditions have made such things obsolete. Now, we are concerned when we see a stranger approach our doors. We open them only a crack, because we don’t know who it is, and we are worried that it might be someone intending to rob or harm us. Companies that used to hire door-to-door salesman have moved to other marketing methods. We get milk and bread at the supermarket or convenience store. We do not expect strangers to knock on our doors, and our guard is immediately up when one does. JWs who have not adapted to the social environment find that many are unwilling to talk with them at all, because their very approach is seen as inappropriate.

  Besides all that, there are very efficient methods today of reaching mass audiences. TV, radio, mass mailings and the Internet are all far more efficient at reaching people than door-knocking, and many Christian ministries use these methods to great effect. The Great Commission is still being obeyed, using the best methods available in our time – just as it was in the time of the apostles.

  1950--1 in 5000 attended the memorial

  2001--1 in 400 attended the memorial

  1950--1 JW for 7000 people

  2000--1 JW for 1000 people

  If you could establish that all those people were brought into the JWs through the door-to-door work, you might have something there, but as far as I know, no statistics are kept as to the method of initial contact used with new converts. In my experience, most JWs I knew had NOT been contacted through the house-to-house work. Rather, the majority had been initially introduced to the JW teaching through workmates, acquaintances, and relatives or had been raised as JWs. It was a very small percentage who had come in through the door to door work. Which makes the statistics I cited regarding 2011 that much worse (and the numbers are similar for most years, I only picked 2011 because it was the most recent number I had). Over 5000 hours to make a convert, and most converts did not come in through that means. So how many hours to make a real convert who was actually contacted through the door-to-door work? 10,000? 15,000? Very efficient indeed.

  The other question that crosses my (admittedly cynical) mind is whether we should trust the growth statistics from the WTS in the first place. They claim growth every year, but seem to be on a downsizing campaign the last few years. Branches are being closed and consolidated, as are local congregations. If the organization were actually growing as it claims, it seems they would be opening new branches and congregations, not closing the ones it has.

  Jesus, Paul, and the early Christians knew they best way to spread their message.

  They certainly did, and it has continued to spread for 2000 years, using the best technology and methods available at every point. Christians today who engage in evangelism don’t usually ride donkeys, they don’t preach from handwritten scrolls, and they don’t typically go canvassing from house to house. At one time all of these things may have represented the optimum in efficiency; today they are obsolete. You are welcome to stick to first-century methods if you wish, but you are not free to demand that every Christian follow your example. There is no command in the Bible for Christians to go sequentially from house to house for the purpose of evangelism.
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  144

  Does God Command Christians To Go From Door To Door Preaching The Gospel?

  by Bangalore in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does god command christians to go from door to door preaching the gospel?.

  source:http://www.thercg.org/questions/p070.a.html.

  based on a quick reading and misinterpretation of acts 20:20, many believe that the apostle paul preached the gospel of the kingdom from house to house, to those who were unconverted.

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  NeonMadman

  Several thoughts here:

  1. The Restored Church of God (to whose web site the original post linked) is an offshoot of Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, and is a majorly wacky cult probably worse than the JWs.

  2. There is not one instance in the Bible where Jesus Himself is said to have gone from house to house. If this were such an indispensable feature of Christian ministry, one would think it would be explicitly stated that the Lord Himself had done so. Telling His disciples to go to people's homes is not the same thing as commanding them to engage in door-to-door evangelism - of course they would go to people's homes to instruct them in an age where there was no TV, radio, Internet, printed Bibles or literature or other means of mass communication. Going to people’s homes does not equate to knocking randomly at the doors of strangers.

  3. The Greek term translated "from house to house" in Acts 20:20 can also be translated "in private homes," and the context indicates that it is much better translated that way there. Paul was not talking about some sort of door to door evangelism program in those verses, he was talking about how he instructed the ELDERS of the Ephesian church. Again, it's not surprising that he would go to their private homes in order to instruct them. The way JWs try to use that verse, we would have to understand that Paul went up and down the streets of Ephesus, randomly knocking on doors until he found an elder of the church, then would go in and instruct him. Doesn't make nearly as much sense.

  4. The only verse in the NT that could possibly be used in support of door to door type evangelism by any early Christians would be Acts 5:42, but the same Greek phrase could as easily also be translated there as "in private homes," and would make just as much sense. In the absence of other evidence for early Christian door to door preaching, we cannot assert this text as sole proof, since its meaning in this matter is not conclusive. We would have to be reading our idea of door to door evangelism into the verse rather than drawing it out. Even if the early Christians did use this method of evangelizing, it would not necessarily mean that such a method is required for Christians today, since there are much more effective methods of reaching large numbers of people that don't carry the negative social implications associated today with making uninvited visits to the homes of strangers. There is no command anywhere in Scripture to preach specifically from house to house; the concept is imposed on the text by JWs, not drawn from the text.

  5. As far as the effectiveness of such door to door ministry, it is actually very ineffective. If you divide their hours spent in "field service" by the number of baptisms for (for example) the year 2011 (as reported in their Yearbook), you find that 5,451 hours had to be spent in their ministry for every new baptism that occurred, and that's not taking into consideration that the majority of those baptisms were probably of young people who had been raised as JWs. That doesn't sound like a very effective method of spreading the word to me. A cynical mind (such as mine) might conclude that the purpose of the door-knocking work for JWs is to keep them so busy that they don't have time to ask questions, rather than to effectively spread their message.

  Not that there is anything wrong with knocking on doors if it's what one feels comfortable to do and one wants to evangelize in that fashion (though I think there are also some very good arguments against it in this day and age), but it is hardly a required activity for Christians, as the WTS teaches.
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  68

  Have you met anyone on the Governing Body?

  by Christ Alone in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i posted on another thread about a couple of my experiences of meeting the governing body while i was in brooklyn.

  i wanted to see if anyone else had any experiences along these same lines.

  i met most of the ones that were current during the 2001-2003 years.

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  NeonMadman

  I met Samuel Herd a few times when he was our District Overseer, but never had a substantial conversation with him. Back in the 1970s, I also met William Jackson (died in 1981), but again, no detailed discussions.
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  16

  Would YOU volunteer for a mission to Mars if you knew you would not return?

  by Nathan Natas in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  one possible scenario for future manned exploration of mars is that the astronauts would be given what amounts to a "one-way ticket" with enough fuel and supplies to get them there and keep them alive but with no plans to return them to earth.. this may strike our modern sinsibilities as an absurd requirement for a mission, and yet it is not much different from what prospect was faced by ocean voyagers during the "age of exploration" right here on earth.

  comments?

  if you were able to qualify, would you be willing to do this?.

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  NeonMadman

  So the idea is that they would have enough supplies to live out their normal life spans on Mars? Or is it assumed they would run out of oxygen or food after a very specific time and would simply die? Is the plan to start some sort of colony there? I'm not sure I understand the intent of such a program.
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  2

  NEED HELP! Need quotes stating WTS doesn't allow other religious literature

  by JWOP in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  watchtower literature is sometimes like finding needles in haystacks.

  where can i find quotes stating that a jehovah's witness is not to accept any literature from any other religions?

  (i'm obviously not using the right search terms!).

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  NeonMadman

  *** w84 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

  Questions From Readers

  ? Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses decline to exchange their Bible study aids for the religious literature of people they meet?

  Jehovah’s Witnesses carry on their public ministry in obedience to divine instructions. Jesus said that during this “conclusion of the system of things,” the “good news of the kingdom [must] be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:3, 14) So Witnesses do not go to people’s doors searching for truth or enlightenment. Rather, they already have devoted countless hours learning the truth from God’s Word and, having taken in the “good news,” they are obediently going forth to share it.

  Many people who believe that ‘there is good in all religions’ might consider it narrow-minded to think otherwise. (Contrast Jesus’ view expressed at Matthew 7:13, 14, 21-23.) The Greek philosophers in ancient Athens encouraged such an “open-minded” attitude and enjoyed “telling something or listening to something new.” (Acts 17:18-21) But when the apostle Paul appeared before them, it was not to swap philosophies or ideas. He used the occasion to present what he knew to be the truth, whether he was considered narrow-minded or not. While some of those Athenians mocked him, a number responded and became believers.—Acts 17:32-34; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.

  Paul obviously was aware of some Greek teachings, and he used such knowledge to give a most effective witness. (Acts 17:28) Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not ignorant of others’ beliefs. They have gained considerable basic knowledge of the doctrinal beliefs of religions common in their area. Consideration to such teachings has been given in the book What Has Religion Done for Mankind? as well as numerous articles in The Watchtower and Awake! Such information on various religions is presented in the context of its contrast with accurate Biblical teachings.

  God’s Word warns Christians that “Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15) Satan so successfully appeared as “an angel of light” that he was able to deceive even a perfect human, Eve. (1 Timothy 2:14) So it would be foolhardy, as well as a waste of valuable time, for Jehovah’s Witnesses to accept and expose themselves to false religious literature that is designed to deceive. They have no intention of falling into the sad course of the Jews, whom Paul said “exchanged the truth of God for the lie.”—Romans 1:25, NW; Revised Standard Version.

  Furthermore, some of the religious literature that people may urge Jehovah’s Witnesses to read is written by, or contains the thoughts of, individuals who have apostatized. True Christians are commanded to shun such apostates. (2 John 9-11; Titus 3:10, 11) Appropriately, then, The Watchtower of June 15, 1983, counseled:

  “In the first century, Hymenaeus and Philetus turned apostate and tried to subvert the faith of others. God’s standard was: ‘Shun such empty speeches that violate what is holy.’ (2 Timothy 2:16-19) Christians holding to that standard would not have been interested in listening to apostates, nor in obtaining any poisonous writings that these might distribute ‘for the sake of dishonest gain.’ Why finance their wickedness by buying their literature? (Titus 1:11) As loyal Christians let us hold to God’s standards, feeding our minds on what is true and righteous, and holding appreciatively and loyally to the channel from which we first learned Bible truth.—Compare 1 Timothy 4:16.”—Page 15.

  Hence, it is out of wisdom and respect for God’s counsel that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not make a practice of exchanging valuable Bible study aids containing Scriptural truth for religious literature that disseminates error or apostate views.
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  58

  Rumor Elders Will Receive Name Badges For Every Meeting.

  by HelpMeBelieve in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i keep hearing rumors elders are going to be getting permanent badge cards to wear to every meeting.

  one excited brother told me, "it would be nice if new ones to the kingdom hall could see who their shepherds are.

  there is a great surge in activity, new bible students will be able to locate the proper elder in charge of bible studies!

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  NeonMadman

  Maybe instead of badges, they could just have them wear their collars backwards.
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  10

  John beheaded--5000 fed, amusing headers in Old Green Bible

  by nuthouse escapee in

  1. social
  2. humour

  passing time at the snorefests was a bit easier when you could find something to distract yourself.

  the following are some of the headers that i found amusing while killing time as a kid

  john beheaded----5000 fed

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  NeonMadman

  My favorite was page 311 in the old green NWT, Judges 19-20:

  "Mass sex crime in Gibeah. All Israel aroused."
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  10

  From the Billionaire

  by The Billionaire in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  my question to this forum, is this: why have the owners of this website made it so difficult to sign in with little joined up letters, so hard to read and interprete, or is it just me?

  the billionaire .

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  NeonMadman

  Nope, it's not just you. I have a lot of trouble reading the captchas. Sometimes I'm certain I have it and still can't get in. I'm not sure if it's some defect in the system or that I really am getting them wrong over and over again. Checking "save info" doesn't help; I still get confronted with the dreaded login page at times.
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  10

  Wtbts was an NGO w/ UN, what about the other Harlots?

  by notjustyet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  wtbts was an ngo w/ un, what about the other harlots?

  i was driving down the road today and was running the scenarios of jw folklore and how it is wrong, wrong, wrong!.

  for some reason i drift over to the un wtbts ngo ( i know right?

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  NeonMadman

  There is nothing intrinsically or biblically wrong with a religious organization being an NGO affiliate with the UN. The problem is that the WTS teaches that the UN is the "image of the wild beast" and is of Satan, then nonetheless decided to become affiliated with it for its own selfish reasons. None of the other religious organizations you listed proclaim such a teaching about the UN, therefore they are not acting hypocritically in aligning themselves with it. Only the JWs brand themselves as hypocrites by their actions.

  It's as if you went around every day telling people that hamburgers are of the devil and Christians should have nothing to do with hamburgers, then one day, we found you at McDonald's scarfing down Quarter Pounders. The rest of us don't believe that there is anything wrong with eating hamburgers, so we are not acting hypocritically by eating at McDonald's - only you are, since it is your own proclaimed standard that you are violating.