Posts by NeonMadman

35

Y R Active JWs Here???

by plmkrzy in

jw
friends

youll have to excuse me im still trying to play catch-up with whats going on here but.. this is addressed to all jws in good standing, or anyone else who may want to comment.. i will appreciate any insight from anyone regarding this.. why are you here????

are you trying to save a few apostates?.

you know your playing with satan.. is there someone in the gb giving a chosen few permission to post here?

NeonMadman

Correct me if i misunderstood you but Did I give you the impression that I am active? The only reason I began comming here was because I stopped being active.

Yes, I did get the impression from your original post that you were an active JW who was chiding other active JW's for hanging out here. Obviously, that seemed a bit inconsistent.

But I must admit, I'm still confused as to your position. Do you still believe that the JW's are God's organization? Are you here for the reason I suggested, that you are disenchanted with the organization but are looking for answers? Were you employing a bit of sarcasm in your remarks to active JW's about this being "Satan's playground"?

Just curious...

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

35

Y R Active JWs Here???

by plmkrzy in

jw
friends

youll have to excuse me im still trying to play catch-up with whats going on here but.. this is addressed to all jws in good standing, or anyone else who may want to comment.. i will appreciate any insight from anyone regarding this.. why are you here????

are you trying to save a few apostates?.

you know your playing with satan.. is there someone in the gb giving a chosen few permission to post here?

NeonMadman

Why are you here???? Are you trying to save a few apostates?
You know your playing with Satan.
Is there someone in the GB giving a chosen few permission to post here?
If you can be Df’d for smoking then why can’t you be shot for comming here to Satans playground?

I think you have to answer the same question, don't you? If you are an active JW and think this is "Satan's playground," why are you here?

A lot of active JW's are here because they know something is drastically wrong with the organization, ands they are looking for answers. Some here have started out that way, and have come out of the organization based upon what they learned here.

Then, there are a few pompous loons who come on here breathing fire and brimstone against the "apostates," but who quickly vanish when their tirades are seriously challenged. Whether they are sanctioned by the governing body is open for discussion, but I don't think the GB is dumb enough to support some of these quacks. They certainly don't accomplish anything for their cause except to make themselves look foolish.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

LoneWolf:

No specific comments on your content, but thanks for a great response to my original question, exactly the sort of story I was hoping for when I started the thread. I may have to look up a few of those books you mention.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

I know this was certainly the case with Mrs Ozzie and then, as JeffT puts it: "I became a Christian before I hooked up with the dubs. I THOUGHT that what they were telling me was the real stuff. When I found out it wasnt' I left. Just wish it hadn't taken 16 years to figure that out." In Mrs Ozzie's case,it was close to 50 years.

And 30 years in my case (well, I was out mentally quite a while before that, but there were family considerations...)

Interesting about becoming a Christian before hooking up with the JW's. That was my experience, too, though I haven't heard too many others say that. I became a JW because I already believed the Bible, and thought their teaching was closer to it than anyone else's. At least it looked that way when I was 17. Over the years, it became obvious I had misjudged, but by then I was married and had a daughter, and getting out wasn't such an easy task...

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

rhett:

Following the "just because there's no proof for something doesn't mean that its not true" line of thinking, I am the mesiah reincarnated. Send me all of your money so I can start a grand ministry. I'll make the world a great place for all of us as soon as I recieve your money. What? You think I'm full of crap? Well then, what proof do you have that I'm not the mesiah and won't make the world a peachy keen place to live? You can't prove that I'm not can you? Surely that must mean that I am!
I'll be waiting for your checks.

I think I understand the point you are effectively using sarcasm to make here. I said that atheism doesn't make sense to me, in effect because the atheist's position that there is no God cannot be proven or determined by finite man. Therefore, the most we humans can logically be is an agnostic. And, as I acknowledged, and funkyderek later pointed out as well, that's a matter of semantics. Certainly, the fact that we cannot prove that there is no God does not prove that one exists. Likewise, the fact that we cannot scientifically prove the existence of God does not mean that no God exists. It's really a matter of faith either way.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

larc:

He goes much farther than that. He holds certain stereotypes about atheists and agnostics that do not hold up under examination.

Where did I express this stereotype? My original contention was that some ex-JW's who have rejected religion did so because "the Society demonizes all other religion, so the logical conclusion to reach is that, 'if this isn't the truth, then nothing is'." I also speculated that "the unreasonable restrictiveness of the borg may cause a reaction in many of being unwilling to accept any sort of religious restrictions in their lives." I then said that "All of this, in many, leads to a total rejection of faith of any kind." Notice, I said in many, not in all, not even necessarily a majority.

Then, in a response to Mommie Dark, I said:

At the sime time, surely you would agree that not every atheist or agnostic has "made a careful study and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only sensible rational path." I have no doubt that some who classify themselves as atheists and agnostics do so precisely because they do not want the moral strictures that religion entails. Others may have been offended by the ways of organized religion, and have therefore rejected faith of any kind. For others, it may have been a knee-jerk reaction just like what i described: "If this isn't the truth, then nothing is." And, like you, some have sincerely examined the issues and concluded that religion makes no sense.

All of the above was speculation. I realize that people may have arrived at the same point by different paths. But it seems you cannot accept that. You seem to have a need to maintain the fiction that ALL atheists have become such because they have thoroughly researched and contemplated the matter, and rationally concluded that atheism is the way to go. And that attitude is just as dogmatic as the Watchtower claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses are better people morally just because they belong to the Watchtower organization.

I didn't make any judgment as to what percentage of atheists arrived at their beliefs by what thought process; I specifically said that it wasn't necessary to make such a determination, that I didn't feel it was important to know that. But it seems to be very important to you to establish atheists as morally superior. Why?

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

again, to larc:

Why did other groups not respond? Because there are very few of them here, that's why.

That's too bad. It does seem like those who are not atheists are feeling less and less welcome here.

You guessed that we are hyper-sensitive. You guessed wrong.
Do any atheists take that course to commit immoral acts. Yes, a small minority. Any Christians who put on that cloak to steal and cheat others? Happens all the time.

I see, so you think that MOST atheists are good people, and MOST Christians are creeps. And you say I think I'm coming from a position of moral superiority? I believe there are lots of good people who are atheists, and lots of good people who are Christians. I also believe there are lots of rotten creeps who are atheists, and lots of rotten creeps who are Christians. Hopefully, the majority on each side is made up of decent, sincere people.

You know some people who say they are atheists who are really are not. They are rejecting organized religion.

And you know some people who say they are Christians who are really not. They are "playing church".

Perhaps I hang out with a more sophisicated group of atheists than you do, people who have thought this through.

I think that's probably right on the mark. Especially the atheists who post on this board strike me as sincere individuals who have given a lot of thought to their positions. I honestly don't believe that the majority of those who say they are atheists in the world at large have thought things through to that extent, any more than I believe that the majority of those who say they are Christians are Bible scholars.

You say you don't judge. Funny how Mommie Dark talked about morality, and you accussed her of exercising "moral superiority" over you. Is this misreading on your part an example of projection?

I did not accuse her of exercising "moral superiority" over me. But when she contended that "I know very few atheists who are vile unprincipled creeps. Most of us are highly ethical, honest, concerned citizens who realize that we have one shot at life, and we try our best to leave the planet a little better and saner than we found it," [emphasis mine] I replied that she "sound[ed] here a bit like the Witnesses touting their moral superiority to people of the world." My point was that I do not believe that one's religious affiliation, or lack thereof, makes one inherently morally superior to anyone else, but that it sounded to me like she thought that being an atheist made you, in and of itself, a better person. Much as the Society claims about its members.

Besides the fact that Mommie Dark misinterpreted my use of the 'baby/bath water' analogy, in her post she referred to Christians as arrogant, superstitious, as having a 'need for a Skydaddy savior,' "Christerbabblers," (whatever that is), hate-filled, and frightened. But I'm the one who is judging?

In fact, my original post did not refer specifically to atheists or agnostics at all, but to ex-JW's who "have rejected religion entirely". It is only the hyper-defensive reactions of the atheist contingent here that have made this thread into something I never expected it to be. As I've said, I was asking about what made people think the way they did after leaving the Borg. You atheists somehow perceived this as an attack on your position, and started shooting. Could this be why, as you say, "there are very few of them [other groups besides atheists] here"?

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

larc:

Although you conceede that some antheists/agnostics have made a thorough search - investigation and do live moral lives. Your statements also indicate that do not think that the majority fit this model. You say that some have made a knee jerk reaction. You say that others have come to their conclusions to justify an immoral life. I think you are way off base. My personal experience is in line with Mommie Dark's and not yours.

I wouldn't presume to try to assert any statistics as to what percentage of atheists/agnostics arrived at that point for which of the reasons I cited; furthermore, I'm sure that not a few have gotten to that point by means that I did not list and have not conceived. Again, the paths taken is what I was asking about, and commenting on.

Would you say that there is not one atheist or agnostic anywhere who got that way because he didn't want the moral restrictions associated with religion? I think it would be absurd for you to say that. Does that represent the majority of atheists/agnostics? Probably not. I have, over the years, talked to a lot of people who claimed to be atheists or agnostics, but who, on exploration of the subject, really just weren't interested in religion. They had no reason not to believe in God, and no reason to believe. It just wasn't important to them. I've even had people admit to me that they wanted no part of religion because it interfered with their lifestyle. My point is that, not everyone who professes atheism or agnosticism does so out of a background of investigation and contemplation; I would guess, based on my own experience that such persons are not in the majority of those who profess atheism or agnosticism, though they may well be in the majority of atheists who post on boards like this one.

And, let's face it: if we combine all the atheists/agnostics whom you know, personally or on this board, with all the ones that I know, we're still speaking about a very small part of the whole, and whatever examples we can offer are anecdotal and inconclusive.

Nor do I think it's very important that we get a percentage breakdown; I started this thread because I had been giving a lot of thought to how I got to where I am, and whether my path so far was as 'straight' as I could make it, so to speak. In other words, was I being reasonable with myself and my beliefs, and were my thoughts about things internally consistent? I asked others what they thought, hoping that their insights about the paths they have followed might shed some light on my own. In asking, I referred to atheists and agnostics. I also referenced Bible Students, Catholics, liberal Protestants, Wiccans, and Evangelical Christians. It seems a bit odd to me that there has been little response from all the other groups, but a great defensive upheaval among the atheists specifically, when there was no attack to begin with. Why do you suppose that is? My guess is that the atheists have become hyper-sensitive to religion of any kind and Christianity in particular, to the point where even a sincere question can be perceived as an attack, necessitating a counter attack.

Let me say it again: I am not judging atheists and agnostics! I respect their position, though I will quickly again point out that I do not agree with it. I also do not agree with Bible Students, Catholics (though I'm married to one), liberal Protestants, Wiccans, etc. I didn't start this thread to push my beliefs, but to gain insight from others as to what their thought processes were after leaving the Borg, and, in effect to ask, 'how did you get to where you are'?

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

Mommie Dark

I think you may have misread the purpose of my post.

I'm always appalled at the arrogance with which Christian apologists view those of us who have made a careful study and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only sensible rational path. The same old tired cliche always gets trotted out; 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.'

The purpose of my post was not to criticize those ex-JW's who have rejected religion, but to explore the path - the thought process, if you will, that has brought them, and others who have taken different paths, to where they are now. The business about the baby and the bath water was not aimed particularly, or even generally, at those who have rejected religion. It was a reference to myself, questioning whether I am going overboard in rejecting all that the Watchtower taught. I wanted to get some input as to what others thought about that.

Rational intelligent atheists haven't 'thrown' anything out. We examined the water closely. We scooped it out in tiny spoonfuls and checked every drop for some genuine content. We strained it carefully, checking every step of the way for something, anything, alive and valuable in the tepid scummy water of religious writings and teachings.
Our conclusion? No baby. Nothing alive or useful at all in all that stagnant old stale water. Just a lot of dire threats and fantastic promises of better future times.

Good for you. You have thought matters through, and arrived at what is, for you, a reasonable conclusion. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, but I didn't start this thread so we could argue about who's right and who's wrong. As I said, I'm thinking in terms of how we got to this point.

At the sime time, surely you would agree that not every atheist or agnostic has "made a careful study and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only sensible rational path." I have no doubt that some who classify themselves as atheists and agnostics do so precisely because they do not want the moral strictures that religion entails. Others may have been offended by the ways of organized religion, and have therefore rejected faith of any kind. For others, it may have been a knee-jerk reaction just like what i described: "If this isn't the truth, then nothing is." And, like you, some have sincerely examined the issues and concluded that religion makes no sense.

I know very few atheists who are vile unprincipled creeps. Most of us are highly ethical, honest, concerned citizens who realize that we have one shot at life, and we try our best to leave the planet a little better and saner than we found it.

Frankly, you sound here a bit like the Witnesses touting their moral superiority to people of the world. There are plenty of "vile, unprincipled creeps," both within religion and outside it. I'm glad to hear that you are not like that. I agree with you that there are plenty of examples of vile, unprincipled creeps among religious people, as all of us who have spent time inside the Borg are keenly aware. But surely there is a natural tendency for a vile, unprincipled creep to adopt a worldview that requires no accountability to a higher power? Which is not to say the converse, that all who reject such accountability are vile and unprincipled.

It's far easier to deny the veracity of the atheist's path than to take an objective look at it.

Agreed. I think we have to be prepared to examine whatever comes our way, and that too many people of faith simply accept what they have been taught -whether about atheism or anything else - without examination. At the same time, I would contend that there are atheists who do the same thing, though you do not appear to be one of them.

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

NeonMadman

funkyderek

Or maybe it's because when some people start questioning their religion, they continue the process and question all religion.

You might have a good point there. My only objection to the statement would be that as JW's, we thought that we had already questioned our (former) religion, if not others, and found it wanting. Most Witnesses are of the mind that they have already 'looked into matters' and determined that 'there is nothing worth having out there in the world'. When a Witness discovers that there is nothing worth having in the Borg, it leaves him with nothing at all. Some people may commit suicide at this point. Others perceive that "nothingness" as applying strictly in the realm of religion and become atheists or agnostics. I'm not saying that all who become atheists or agnostics follow that path, only that I suspect many do. I'm sure there are many others who, like yourself, have arrived where they are through reason and exploration.

But I do have one problem with atheism (as opposed to agnosticism) - read below...

Adonai438

If you just decide to not believe in God without checking the facts, you are no better than the JWs who put their blind faith in the WT.

Yep, that's kind of it. I can't understand atheism, because it seems every bit as dogmatic to me as JW teaching. Agnosticism, yes. I disagree with it, but I can understand how someone can say, honestly and sincerely, "I don't know whether God exists". But I can't see how a human being on this speck of dust we call Earth can definitively state that there is no God. You can say that you see no evidence of God, but that puts you into the agnostic category as far as I'm concerned. Akin, perhaps, to my saying that I see no evidence of life on Jupiter. Doesn't mean it isn't there. Or that it doesn't take some form that I never anticipated. I can say that I can't see evidence that there is life on Jupiter, that Jupiter seems inhospitable to life as we know it, etc. etc. But I'd be a fool to say categorically that there is no life on Jupiter unless I've been there and scoured the planet looking for it. Likewise with atheism. Unless you've perceived everything there is to know about the Universe, how can you categorically state that there is no God? Maybe it's just a matter of semantics. But I have spoken with atheists who were very insistent that they were not agnostics; that they were sure that there was no God. Just doesn't make sense to me...

Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan