The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    The other day, I was messaged by a young JW guy (using Yahoo Messenger, where I am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!). His opening line to me was, "Why are you attacking the Witnesses?" I responded by asking him in what way I was attacking the Witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a Yahoo club for ex-JW's. I asked how he figured that belonging to a club constituted an attack, and, to his credit, he apologized. We then started talking about my history (I was a pioneer and an MS in my day) and why I left. He argued with me about the organizational stuff, and we were having a halfway decent give-and-take until I made a mistake: I said that I believed that Jesus is Jehovah God. His response to that was, "What happened to you?" and I answered, "I found the truth." But he must have hit the "ignore" button about then, because after that he didn't respond.

    In retrospect, I should have stuck to organizational matters, because he was obviously turned off by my rejection of what he considers Biblically "solid" doctrine. And, frankly, I'd have liked to have kept talking with him if for no other reason than that he seemed like a nice kid; I liked him. But any hope I might have had to show him the phoniness of the borg disappeared when I brought doctrine into the discussion.

    Well, anyway, I told you that to tell you this:

    Since then, I've been thinking a lot about the directions we take after we leave the borg. I see a lot of people here who have rejected religion entirely, and I think that's an entirely natural direction, particularly for people who may not have been especially religious prior to becoming JW's. After all, the Society demonizes all other religion, so the logical conclusion to reach is that, 'if this isn't the truth, then nothing is'. I've heard JW's say that very thing. Besides, the unreasonable restrictiveness of the borg may cause a reaction in many of being unwilling to accept any sort of religious restrictions in their lives. All of this, in many, leads to a total rejection of faith of any kind.

    Others may leave the Watchtower without changing their minds about much of anything at all. They may have seen the falsity of the organization itself, but they still believe most of the doctrines. I think that this is why so many ex-JW's gravitate to the Bible Student groups - the doctrines are very similar, without the organizational garbage. Nothing against the Bible Students here; I have great respect for the ones I've met and think that the majority are wonderful people, with many fine Christians among them. But I do tend to think that an ex-JW who simply joins up with the Bible Students because the doctrines are familiar, hasn't really broken completely free of Watchtower thought processes.

    Other ex-JW's have gotten into new age stuff; a few have become Catholic or gone into the more liberal end of Protestantism, though none of these seem to represent large numbers. I find it interesting that a larger number than I would have expected have gone into the Wiccan tradition, and I admit that I'm a bit curious what leads one to that particular path out of the borg.

    I also know quite a few ex-JW's who have become evangelical Christians; I number myself among them. These, I believe, are the ones who actually did place their primary faith in the Bible, and who were able to maintain some mental distance between what the Bible says and what the organization says, an area in which many JW's become confused (as, I believe, the Society intends).

    I became a JW because I believed the Bible to be God's Word, and I believed that the JW's taught the Bible more accurately than anybody else. When I realized, finally and unequivocally, that the Watchtower was false, the next logical step for me was to realize that nothing they had taught me could be accepted as truth without testing. The organization was a false prophet. So, no matter how "Biblical" I thought their teachings might be, every specific doctrine had to be explored. And, as I did so, I found that, not only were they wrong organizationally, but that most of their doctrines were based on twisted and out-of-context applications of scripture.

    I haven't finished my exploration. I'm still studying. The Trinity doctrine for example - I accept it in a tentative way. It looks to me as if it is what the Bible teaches, but I have not yet explored it thoroughly enough to say I have a solid faith in it. The deity of Christ, on the other hand, appears to me to be rock-solid. A reading of the book of John convinced me beyond question that Jesus is God. But that's the way I see things now. More study, and who knows? After my JW experience, I'm not sure I can ever be arrogant enough again to say that I "know" anything. All I can do is accept what the Lord shows me.

    The thing I wonder about sometimes is whether I've been too ready to reject JW teaching simply because it is JW teaching. I seem to have reached a point where there is little I can agree with the Watchtower on, all of their arguments seem so thin and transparent. Perhaps this is just the point one reaches after seeing the 'man behind the curtain'. It's not that I'm having a crisis of faith or anything, but this stuff has been on my mind for a while now, and I thought I'd put it out here to see what all of you folks think, and ask you what thought processes you went through on your way out of the borg that got you where you are now.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    Nice post, Neon. I think we all go through a similar experience. We have a tendency to reject all JW doctrine because we feel we were deceived on other issues, so all issues/doctrines must be false. I think for anyone that remained in the borg for a substantial amount of time (I was raised in it) it is very hard to shake certain doctrines. We have never been allowed to think for ourselves, it was always done for us. Therefore, when we gain freedom from the borg, it takes a while to decipher the garbage from what is really true. That path takes each one of us into a different direction.

    From what I've experienced from visiting this board is that many take the path into atheism. Maybe it's because, as you stated, the JW's tend to demonize all other religions.

    "I must stand up in search of the truth, if I don't, I only roll with the flow of the lie and make it stronger.
    ---Sovereign---

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    From what I've experienced from visiting this board is that many take the path into atheism. Maybe it's because, as you stated, the JW's tend to demonize all other religions.

    Or maybe it's because when some people start questioning their religion, they continue the process and question all religion. It's very difficult to remain a believer once you realise there is no good reason to believe.

    --
    "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794.

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld

    "Or maybe it's because when some people start questioning their religion, they continue the process and question all religion."

    Agreed. I don't understand why people assume an atheist is an atheist because they want to 'get away with being bad' / avoid guilty conscience, or in the x-JW case, because they cling to the 'all other religions are bad' thought. I know for myself, once I objectivally studied the bible, and other 'holy' books, it became quite obvious that these were the writings of men - and were used in religions to control the people. I see no hand of god in those books or in any religion today. End of story. So, until I see a fellow walking on water, turning water into wine, or smiting people with fire from heaven, I'll just keep on keepin' on!

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    At the risk of sounding corny: Nice to meet you brother in Christ!
    I too, am a member of that yahoo club :) LuvYHWH1295
    but I don't get in there much. I didn't connect neonmadman with breezyone2001. I personally left the WT because their beliefs did not jive with the Bible. I learned a lot about the true Yahweh through that 'independent thinking and Bible reading' route. To those who are thinking about or have 'thrown the baby out with the bath water' I would just like to encourage you to base your decision on God on fact, research, and study not on what the WT or anyone else did to you. If you just decide to not believe in God without checking the facts, you are no better than the JWs who put their blind faith in the WT. I know fact, history, science etc... supports the true God of the Bible.

    <>< Angie

    w

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Neon,

    Nice to meet you. Most of what you wrote mirrors my own thoughts on such matters. It's good to see more Christians on this board.

  • Dino
    Dino

    Thanks Neon.
    Dino

  • Mommie Dark
    Mommie Dark

    I'm always appalled at the arrogance with which Christian apologists view those of us who have made a careful study and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only sensible rational path. The same old tired cliche always gets trotted out; 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.'

    Rational intelligent atheists haven't 'thrown' anything out. We examined the water closely. We scooped it out in tiny spoonfuls and checked every drop for some genuine content. We strained it carefully, checking every step of the way for something, anything, alive and valuable in the tepid scummy water of religious writings and teachings.

    Our conclusion? No baby. Nothing alive or useful at all in all that stagnant old stale water. Just a lot of dire threats and fantastic promises of better future times.

    So what does a rational intelligent being do under these circumstances? Find some clean water, wash well, and scrub the vessel clean of the smelly old superstitions that formerly filled it. Then start fresh finding vital useful tools for living that are free of the taint of those superstitions.

    It's offensive and arrogant of Christian apologists to assume that we have merely made some rash emotional kneejerk reaction to our former abuse at the hands of a cult. Most of us who have given up a need for a Skydaddy savior have spent many more hours researching and learning than the average frightened Christerbabbler, and have used a much wider range of resources.

    It's much harder to find an ethical baseline, a moral imperative, without buying one of the shrink-wrapped, tidy, but often hate-filled salvation packages offered by Churchianity. I know very few atheists who are vile unprincipled creeps. Most of us are highly ethical, honest, concerned citizens who realize that we have one shot at life, and we try our best to leave the planet a little better and saner than we found it. We work at decency, not out of fear of damnation or promise of some salvation reward, but out of plain human compassion.

    You Christerbabblers might want to try it sometime. Of course it's been my experience that Christians who prate loudest about 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' are too frightened to even try to behave decently without the crutch of their religion. It's far easier to deny the veracity of the atheist's path than to take an objective look at it.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    funkyderek

    Or maybe it's because when some people start questioning their religion, they continue the process and question all religion.
    You might have a good point there. My only objection to the statement would be that as JW's, we thought that we had already questioned our (former) religion, if not others, and found it wanting. Most Witnesses are of the mind that they have already 'looked into matters' and determined that 'there is nothing worth having out there in the world'. When a Witness discovers that there is nothing worth having in the Borg, it leaves him with nothing at all. Some people may commit suicide at this point. Others perceive that "nothingness" as applying strictly in the realm of religion and become atheists or agnostics. I'm not saying that all who become atheists or agnostics follow that path, only that I suspect many do. I'm sure there are many others who, like yourself, have arrived where they are through reason and exploration.

    But I do have one problem with atheism (as opposed to agnosticism) - read below...

    Adonai438

    If you just decide to not believe in God without checking the facts, you are no better than the JWs who put their blind faith in the WT.
    Yep, that's kind of it. I can't understand atheism, because it seems every bit as dogmatic to me as JW teaching. Agnosticism, yes. I disagree with it, but I can understand how someone can say, honestly and sincerely, "I don't know whether God exists". But I can't see how a human being on this speck of dust we call Earth can definitively state that there is no God. You can say that you see no evidence of God, but that puts you into the agnostic category as far as I'm concerned. Akin, perhaps, to my saying that I see no evidence of life on Jupiter. Doesn't mean it isn't there. Or that it doesn't take some form that I never anticipated. I can say that I can't see evidence that there is life on Jupiter, that Jupiter seems inhospitable to life as we know it, etc. etc. But I'd be a fool to say categorically that there is no life on Jupiter unless I've been there and scoured the planet looking for it. Likewise with atheism. Unless you've perceived everything there is to know about the Universe, how can you categorically state that there is no God? Maybe it's just a matter of semantics. But I have spoken with atheists who were very insistent that they were not agnostics; that they were sure that there was no God. Just doesn't make sense to me...

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    You can say that you see no evidence of God, but that puts you into the agnostic category as far as I'm concerned.

    That's an issue of semantics. I consider myself an agnostic atheist. That may sound like a contradiction, but it isn't. I acknowledge that it can never be proved with absolute certainty that there is no god (if the definition of god is loose enough), but for me, the absence of any evidence forces me to assume that there is no god.

    Unless you've perceived everything there is to know about the Universe, how can you categorically state that there is no God?
    You can't of course, if you define the word god loosely enough. You can, however, categorically state (for example) that the Bible is full of contradictions, and therefore could not have been written by the god most of its adherents worship (i.e. an omnipotent, loving god). So you can say categorically that gods with certain attributes do not exist. If you define god as (for example) an omnipotent being who doesn't interact with the material universe in any way, then by definition, its existence cannot be disproven. Of course, such a "god" is hardly worthy of the name, and even if such a being may exist, it may as well not exist.

    Basically, I just believe in one god less than you do. I reject your god for the same reasons you reject other gods.

    --
    "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794.

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