Great game!
Ireland looked nervous after the first goal but soon settled after half-time.
How lucky was Damien Duff though?
It'll probably be Spain next on Sunday though' - that will be a real test.
"When Irish eyes are smiling"
nicolaou
JoinedPosts by nicolaou
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Ireland 3 Saudi Arabia 0 !!!!!!!
by funkyderek in.
ireland 3 saudi arabia 0 .
ireland are through to the last 16
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UNITED NATIONS , NGO's and WTBS
by MacHislopp infollowing the link given by kent,.
i have several observation to make:.
(from the link : http://www.un.org/moreinfo/ngolink/brochure.htm).
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nicolaou
Apologies for bringing this thread back to the top after so long but I didn't want to start a new just to make this one post.
I found this Awake article and thought it would be good to place it in here 'for the record'.
Nic'
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Effort to Oust Vatican From UN Awake! October 22, 2000
The Rome-based news agency Inter Press Service (IPS) reported that "an International coalition of more than 70 non-governmental organizations (NGOs) has launched a global campaign to oust the Vatican from the United Nations". Presently, the Vatican is a permanent observer, or non member state, in the UN organization. The Vatican has had that status since 1964.
Why does this group of NGOs, which by the end of April last year had increased to 100 organisations worldwide, object to the Vaticans position in the UN? Because the Vatican, the NGOs argue, is a religious authority and not a political state. Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, told IPS that the coalition does not oppose the Vaticans right to express its view, but "what is in question is the right of this non-state to occupy a position with governments".
Anika Rahman, director of International Programmes at the Centre for Reproductive Law and Policy, agrees. IPS quoted her as saying that "if the UN treats the Holy See as a state with permanent observer privileges because of its religious authority, the world body is creating a precedent for similar claims by other religions". She added: "To ensure that the United Nations does not promote any particular religion, religious entities such as the Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to participate in this forum as a non-member state".
But what about the argument that the Vatican is a state and is therefore entitled to its present status? "That is semantic double-talk," responded Ms Kissling in an interview. "We say that this is in essence a 15th-century definition of statehood and that the Holy See is, in effect, the governing structure of the religion". She added that the terms "Vatican" and "the Holy See" are both "synonyms for the Roman Catholic Church".
Much of the resentment of the NGOs against the Vaticans current position in the UN is caused by the Vaticans view on population issues. For instance, the Vatican has used UN conferences such as the 1994 International Conference on Population and Development, in Cairo, and the 1995 Womens Conference, in Beijing, to express its strong views against family planning. "Since the UN takes most of its decisions by consensus," notes IPS, "dissenting voices such as those of the Vatican have derailed negotiations on issues relating to population, contraception, womens rights and reproductive health care".
According to Ms. Kissling, "the appropriate role for the Vatican is that of a NGO - the same as all the other NGOs representing Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais and other religious organisations". The coalition wants UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and ultimately the UN General Assembly to conduct an official review of the place the Vatican occupies within the worlds largest political body.
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nicolaou
I am GLAAAAAADDD!
This forum just got a wee bit cooler. Great to have you back Wendy, how's the little one?
Nic'
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Christian - Pagan Parallels.
by nicolaou inan inscription in the vatican states plainly, "he who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and i with him, shall not be saved.".
this is not terribly surprising, unless you consider that this is inscribed on the remains of the temple the vatican was built on- one dedicated to the god mithras.
such eerie parallels between the pronouncements of jesus and mithras are not the only similarities.
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nicolaou
An inscription in the Vatican states plainly, "He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
This is not terribly surprising, unless you consider that this is inscribed on the remains of the temple the Vatican was built on- one dedicated to the God Mithras.Such eerie parallels between the pronouncements of Jesus and Mithras are not the only similarities. Mithras was known to his followers as "The light of the world," or "The good shepherd," and exhorted his followers to share ritual communion. He is born in a cave, with shepherds in attendance.
Attis, is known to his followers as "The lamb of God," and his crucifixion and subsequent resurrection were celebrated annually, with ritual communions of bread and wine. His virgin mother, Cybele, was worshipped as "The queen of heaven."
Thousands of years before Jesus, there was a passion story told about a God man, born of a virgin mother- in a stable. He travels about with his followers, preaching and performing miracles, until one day he is allows himself to be arrested and tried for blasphemy.
He is found guilty and executed, only to rise from the grave three days later, where the women weeping at his tomb do not recognize him- that is, until he assumes his divine form as the God Dionysus.Common to all of these 'mystery' religions (so called because one had to be initiated or baptized into the faith to learn its doctrines), including early Christianity, are themes of rebirth, redemption, and the transmission of life-changing information. Many religions in those times shared similar themes.
Of course, later Christians were terribly perturbed by these similarities- one creative Church father, Justin Martyr, concludes that the devil copied Christianity before its time! Had he paid a little more attention to the past, he might have noted that the association of Jesus with Dionysus is not so strange-philosophers had been making connections between Jehovah and Dionysus for centuries.
New Testament authors stuck sly references to Pagan gods throughout the gospels. Did early Christians, like their modern descendents, believe that theirs was the one and only true manifestation of religion? Consider the words of Clement, of Alexandria, "There is one river of Truth, which receives tributaries from every side." If only the later followers of the religion listened more closely, the mysteries may not have been lost.
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Not my own work - I just found it fascinating.
Nic'
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I measured mine - 9 inches !
by Simon inwhat were you expecting when you clicked that topic ?!?!.
actually, i read an interesting bit of trivia somewhere that said mens nipples are always 9 inches apart.
i measured mine and i'm spot on.. of course i'd be disappointed if all my vital stats were just 9 inches
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nicolaou
You guys are all a bunch of sexually 'stunted' studs - mines a whopping twenty two-er!!
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'Course, I am on the metric system.
Nic'
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finally got my thoughts gathered to share......
by scootergirl ini am relatively new to the board and have to say have never had such a heartwarming welcome from so many people!
it feels so comforting to make new friends that "understand" where i have come from.. i have read many many stories, and have sat back in awe....wow, what stories.
mine is quite simple, but none-the-less my story.
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nicolaou
Christy
you're doing just fine, take your time and know that we aren't going anywhere.
Lots of us have shared our stories [ http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21351&site=3 ]- unburdening is just a part of it but it's also good to remember that you in turn are also helping others to open up and start their own healing.
Glad to get to know you,
Love Nic'
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Putting words into the mouth of God.
by nicolaou inabout as arrogant as you can get - but who is surprised anymore .
jehovah's prophetic word through christ jesus is: "this generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.
" (luke 21:32) and jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his son's words in a relatively short time.-isaiah 46:9, 10; 55:10, 11.. watchtower 1984, may 15, p6/7 'the genaeration that will not pass away..
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nicolaou
About as arrogant as you can get - but who is surprised anymore . . . . ?
Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: "This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur." (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son's words in a relatively short time.-Isaiah 46:9, 10; 55:10, 11.
Watchtower 1984, May 15, p6/7 'The Genaeration That Will Not Pass Away.
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Fred Franz and door-to-door
by badboy infred franz once said about door-to-door work`for example,on going to a home paul might have entered in the front door and after his discussion he might have gone out the back door,and so he would be going door-to-door'.
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nicolaou
In Search of Christian Freedom
Chapter 7 From House to House [page 223]
[Ray Franz puts the question to his uncle.........]
"Does Brother Fred Franz really believe that the phrase 'from house to house' as found in these verses [Acts 5:42; 20:20] actually means going from 'door to door', from one door to the next door? I would appreciate his expressing himself on that."
"The chairman, Karl Klein, turned to him and said, "Well, Brother Franz?" his reply began with, "Yes - I believe it can include that." (Note the use of the word 'can, not 'does'.) He then went on to say, "For example, on going to a home Paul might have entered in the front door and, after his discussion, he might have gone out the back door, and so he would be going from door to door." A number of the members broke out in laughter.
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WALSH CASE - Court Transcripts.
by nicolaou inparticularly for anyone who's read either of ray franz' books, the walsh case in scotland, 1954 is well known.
for anyone who's unfamiliar with it, i've reproduced an important section below.. the reason for this post is to let you all know that you can actually purchase a copy of the original transcript - not cheap though!.
microfiche copy 35-40. photocopy 180.00. you may obtain a copy from:.
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nicolaou
Particularly for anyone who's read either of Ray Franz' books, the Walsh Case in Scotland, 1954 is well known. For anyone who's unfamiliar with it, I've reproduced an important section below.
The reason for this post is to let you all know that you can actually purchase a copy of the original transcript - not cheap though!Microfiche copy £35-40
Photocopy £180.00You may obtain a copy from:
Scottish Records Office, PO Box 36, HM General Office,
Edinburgh, EH1 3YY.
Ref: Persur's Proof C5258/1958/2738------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In November 1954, the Douglas Walsh trial was held in the Scottish Court of Sessions, in which the Watchtower Society tried to establish before the British court that certain of its members were ordained ministers. High ranking leaders of the Society testified, including vice-president Fred Franz and legal counsel for the Society, Haydon C. Covington. Covington’s testimony before the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service included the following:
Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters?
A. It certainly is.
Q. Is there in your view room in a religion for a change of interpretation of Holy Writ from time to time?
A. There is every reason for a change in interpretation as we view it, of the Bible. Our view becomes more clear as we see the prophesy fulfilled by time.
Q. You have promulgated - forgive the word - false prophesy?
A. We have - I do not think we have promulgated false prophesy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.
Q. Is it a most vital consideration in the present situation of the world to know if the prophesy can be interpreted into terms of fact, when Christ’s Second Coming was?
A. That is true, and we have always striven to see that we have the truth before we utter it. We go on the very best information we have but we cannot wait until we get perfect, because if we wait until we get perfect we would never be able to speak.
Q. Let us follow that up just a little. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah’s Witnesses that the Lord’s Second Coming took place in 1874?
A. I am not familiar with that. You are speaking on a matter that I know nothing of.
Q. You heard Mr. Franz’s evidence?
A. I heard Mr. Franz testify, but I am not familiar with what he said on that, I mean the subject matter of what he was talking about, so I cannot answer any more than you can, having heard what he said.
Q. Leave me out of it?
A. That is the source of my information, what I have heard in court.
Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?
A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures," and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.
Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ’s Second Coming was in 1874?
A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.
Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.
Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah’s Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.
Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?
A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.
Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies?
A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satan’s Organisation, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all.
Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?
A. I agree that.
Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses?
A. That is correct.
Q. If a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.
Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.
Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A. That is conceded to be true.
Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?
A. That is correct.
Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?
A. I think - - -
Q. Would you say yes or no?
A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.
Q. Do you call that religion?
A. It certainly is.
Q. Do you call it Christianity?
A. I certainly do.
Fred Franz, then vice-president of the Society, also answered questions for the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service.
Q. In addition to these regular publications do you prepare and issue a number of theological pamphlets and books from time to time?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me this; are these theological publications and the semi-monthly periodicals used for discussion of statements of doctrine?
A. Yes.
Q. Are these statements of doctrine held to be authoritative within the Society?
A. Yes.
Q. Is their acceptance a matter of choice, or is it obligatory on all those who wish to be and remain members of the Society?
A. It is obligatory. . . . . . . . .
The British government counsellor later directed attention to certain teachings that the Society had in time rejected, including some involving specific dates. What, he asked, if someone, at the time when such teaching was promulgated, had seen the error in it and had therefore not accepted it? What would the organization’s attitude toward such one be? The testimony explains:
Q. Did [Pastor Russell] not fix 1874 as some other crucial date?
A. 1874 used to be understood as the date of Jesus’ Second Coming spiritually.
Q. Do you say, used to be understood?
A. That is right.
Q. That was issued as a fact which was to be accepted by all who were Jehovah’s Witnesses?
A. Yes.
Q. That is no longer now accepted, is it?
A. No.
. . . . . . . .
Q. But it was a calculation which is no longer accepted by the Board of Directors of the Society?
A. That is correct.
Q. So that am I correct, I am just anxious to canvas the position; it became the bounden duty of the Witnesses to accept this miscalculation?
A. Yes . . . . . . . .
Q. So that what is published as the truth today by the Society may have to be admitted to be wrong in a few years?
A. We have to wait and see.
Q. And in the meantime the body of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been following error?
A. They have been following misconstructions on the Scriptures.
Q. Error?
A. Well, error.
Again the question as to how great the authority attributed to the Society’s publications is came in for discussion. While at one point the vice president says that "one does not compulsorily accept," his testimony thereafter reverts back to the earlier position, as can be seen:
A. These [Watchtower Society] books give an exposition on the whole Scriptures.
Q. But an authoritative exposition?
A. They submit the Bible or the statements that are therein made, and the individual examines the statement and then the Scripture to see that the statement is Scripturally supported.
Q. He what?
A. He examines the Scripture to see whether the statement is supported by the Scripture. As the Apostle says: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".
Q. I understood the position to be - do please correct me if I am wrong - that a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses must accept as a true Scripture and interpretation what is given in the books I referred you to?
A. But he does not compulsorily do so, he is given his Christian right of examining the Scriptures to confirm that this is Scripturally sustained.
Q. And if he finds that the Scripture is not sustained by the books, or vice versa, what does he do?
A. The Scripture is there in support of the statement, that is why it is put there.
Q. What does a man do if he finds a disharmony between the Scripture and those books?
A. You will have to produce me a man who does find that, then I can answer, or he will answer.
Note Franz’s waffling. He is unwilling, even under oath, to admit that present understanding can be in error, even though he just finished testifying that what is published as truth today may be error in a few years.
Q. Did you imply that the individual member has the right of reading the books and the Bible and forming his own view as to the proper interpretation of Holy Writ?
A. He comes - - -
Q. Would you say yes or no, and then qualify?
A. No. Do you want me to qualify now?
Q. Yes, if you wish?
A. The Scripture is there given in support of the statement, and therefore the individual when he looks up the Scripture and thereby verifies the statement, then he comes to the Scriptural view of the matter, Scriptural understanding as it is written in Acts, the seventeenth chapter and the eleventh verse, that the Bereans were more noble than those of Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness, and they searched the Scripture to see whether those things were so, and we instruct to follow that noble course of the Bereans in searching the Scripture to see whether these things were so.
Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he, to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed instructions issued in the "Watchtower" or the "Informant" or "Awake"?
A. He must accept those.
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BBC wants your views on leaving a cult.
by nicolaou inthe bbc are inviting comment from former cult members.. follow this link; http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hometruths/leavingacult.shtml.
there's an interview worth reading and then you can submit your views.
could be useful material for the programme makers.. nic'.
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nicolaou
The BBC are inviting comment from former cult members.
Follow this link; http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hometruths/leavingacult.shtml
There's an interview worth reading and then you can submit your views. Could be useful material for the programme makers.
Nic'
Have you, a friend, or a member of your family become involved with an organisation which you wished to leave, but found hard to do so?
How did this affect your close relationships?
Were friends and family supportive?
BBC Radio 4 - 'Leaving A Cult'