vienne

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Posts by vienne

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  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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  vienne

  F,

  That's BS. The real issue is that you want to paint your former associates as wicked and will say anything, no matter how incorrect, to do so.

  The statement on charities is plain. Witnesses benefit from some of them. Some of them are faulty.
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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  vienne

  Simple unintentional mistake? Really?

  You think they pointed to 1975 knowing that it was contrived and expecting a mass exodus of members?

  Franz was an old time Russellite. He was imbued with belief that the 6000 year theory was correct - that Christopher Bowen's chronology was accurate. He used it. The Watchtower still uses it, though without attribution to its original source. It wasn't a simple mistake. It was 'true belief' in a false theory.

  F, you have a habit of misstating what others say. That's the problem here.
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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  vienne

  F,

  You write: "So in other words you just want to refute any information that goes against your own findings about the IBSA/JWS"

  No. I want to refute poorly formed, irrational arguments that have no foundation. The one with strong personal bias here is you. Either you do not know the meaning of the words you use, or you purposely use inflammatory words that to not rightly characterize events. You degrade your points by doing so.
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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  vienne

  Favorable bias? I wouldn't say that. As a historian I feel it isn't ethical to attribute bad motive where other explanations suffice. Sometimes motive is 'bad.' In our books we point to several instances. In volume one of Separate Identity we point to L. A. Allen's apparent sexual relationship to one of the Watch Tower evangelists, but we use her own words to 'go there.' We point to Russell's self view that in the period we cover [up to 1887], he was God's special agent, a teacher of teachers. But we use his own words to do that. We point out that Barbour was a thief and a liar. But we use his own words to do that.

  Attributing motive where there is no firm evidence is wrong. And doing so would make us like E. C. Gruss who simply made up his 'history.'

  Many on this board feel hurt by the Watchtower. I understand this, and my own experience with Witness elders is almost entirely negative. But some of those who feel hurt express themselves irrationally. Assume someone is disfellowshipped for what? Sexual issues will do. They did not wish to live the life of strict adherence Witness culture demands. That is their choice. Personally, I don't care what others choose to do as long as it does not hurt others. But Witnesses believe they must intervene. So they disfellowship. Exclusion from a group is hurtful, and disfellowshipping is supposed to hurt. The goal is to make the 'bad boy' repent. In most cases it doesn't work, and the expelled person is resentful.

  When we're resentful we tend to be irrational. So, let's say our 'bad boy' had multiple partners. That's not the Witness way. He likes having indiscriminate sexual encounters. Does he really want to be a Witness? Well, he doesn't want to behave as one, but he may like that feeling of belonging and he may want to stay within the fellowship. Exclusion brings with it the feeling that he is less than he was. In fact, nothing has changed. He is worth exactly as much before as after. But the feeling of rejection is still present. There is often a transference of blame. "Sure, I kissed ten girls today, six of them underage, and probably I shouldn't have, BUT they said I'm worthless and threw me out and my own mommy won't talk to me!"

  Okay, I know that's extreme, or I hope it is. But humans tend to transfer blame for faults.

  There is also the feeling that one has been misled. The Watchtower suggests that life within its fellowship is a near paradise. It isn't. People are what people are. Every fault individuals had before they were Witnesses, or the underlying causes, remains. One may have given up smoking, for instance, and never cured the underlying addictive behavior. So expectations raised by Watchtower doctrine cannot be met within their fellowship. There is nothing so bitter as believing you were lied to.

  Watchtower authority structure is such that adherents expect ideal behavior from those filling authoritarian office - elders and such. At conventions, instead of thanking God for the 'spiritual feast' the chairman thanks the Governing Body and everyone applauds. They set their members up for disappointment. Adverse reaction to this often comes slowly. Old Goat who used to post here lives across the Columbia River from me. I know him well. He was a Company Servant back in the Day, then Congregation Servant, then Elder, Convention speaker, appeal committee choice. But over the years he associated numbers of incidents accumulated that could not finally be resolved. He simply walked away though nominally 'in.' When saturation occurs, there is a reaction. Again, one may want to say and think the worst of the person or organization they see as cause.

  But we shouldn't say what is false. Ethically and morally we should not attribute motive where the facts do not sustain it.
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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• 

  vienne

  F,

  As usual you misstate what the quotation says. The full quotation suggests that SOME charities are burdened with administrative expenses and do not fulfill their obligations. Some is not all.
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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  vienne

  I write witness history. I attended with my mother from age 12 to 18 because I saw it as an obligation, not because I was 'convinced.' My mother was Austrian and Catholic. We were raised with a sense of obligation to family. When my mother's interest was new, I read all I could. That included Rutherford's book Riches. It was fascinating, but I had to ask myself, "how does he know this?" And the answer was, He made it up. So no, I've never been a believer.

  Understand that at twelve I was a sophomore in high school and enrolled in Running Start, a program that allows high school students to earn college credit. I graduated high school at 15 with an AA and ECE Certificate. I wasn't a dumb kid. And I certainly was not gullible. When I left home for WSU, I was no longer under the parental roof and not obligated to attend. My Master's thesis was on an aspect of Witness history. With my writing partner I write accurate (as accurate as we can make it), let the chips fall where they may history.

  No-one prevented my younger siblings from attending college. My dad would not have allowed that. They made that choice on their own. My dad is a fairly well known -within his field- scientist, now retired but still writing. He is very pro-education. Nothing mother would have said, if she chose to, would have stopped us.

  Mother was a teacher and school administrator. She was not against education. She worked in the field. So on those grounds there was never an anti-education attitude within our household.

  My oldest sister has a MFA and is a photographer living in Belgium. If you read European fashion magazines you may have seen her work.
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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  vienne

  F,

  What The Watchtower actually said is:
  
  When it comes to organized charity, though, we need to be cautious as we evaluate the many appeals we receive. Some charities have high administrative or fund-raising costs, leaving only a small portion of the collected money for the intended purpose. Proverbs 14:15 says: “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.” So it is the course of wisdom to examine the facts carefully. W June 1, 2003

  The second step is to look at your ultimate objectives—not in terms of amounts, but in terms of what you want to accomplish for both yourself and your beneficiaries. Typically, a married person will want to provide security for his or her spouse. A parent may want to provide some measure of financial protection for his or her children. An adult child may want to arrange for the care of an elderly parent. Additionally, you may want to remember certain friends or charities in your estate plan. It is important to write down who is to be included in your estate plan and your objective with regard to each. Awake Dec. 8, 1998

  Some charities are able to do much good for people in need. When affected by natural disasters or catastrophic illness, many times Christians themselves have received benefits from such charities. Other charities, though, have high administrative costs or high fund-raising costs, with the result that only a small portion of the money collected is actually used for the advertised purpose. For example, a recent survey of 117 of the United States’ largest nonprofit organizations, including charities, found that more than a quarter of them pay their top executives a yearly salary of $200,000 or more. Audits often reveal expenditures for luxury items and the financing of an opulent life-style. Regardless of the name of the charity, it would take a long stretch of the imagination to believe that contributing to such schemes would fulfill the Bible’s command to help those in need. Awake June 8, 1993.
  
  
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  F,

  Reasserting what you said does not prove your point. Where, in what issue, on what page, did they say this?
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  Where in the Watchtower does it say one should never give to outside charities?
  
• 
  83

  True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

  by Finkelstein in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

  such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

  i would say convincingly yes, no question.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  vienne

  Was I ever a Witness? No. I only have an academic interest.