That too is not exactly what the WT teaches. They teach that salvation depends on obedience to Christ. That's 'truth' in a biblical sense. But then they miss-define to what me must be obedient. Some things we can describe as obedience are defined by Jesus and others by the apostles. Is it obedience to testify to Christ to our neighbors? Yes. Is it obedience to circulate specific literature and report our hours or minutes? That's not in the new testament at all. Is it obedience to be submissive to those 'taking the lead.' Yes, but that depends on where they are leading, doesn't it? Most here have experienced elders passing on as firmly established NT rules their personal opinions. The WT sees suspending our conscience to the GB's commands as being submissive to those leading. That's contrary to the New Testament.
You might note that you've left the main point. I understand that this is an issue too. But it's off the topic here. I know many Witnesses who would if discussing this with you say that there is a difference between obedience to Christ and salvation by works. The issue, I suppose, is what one sees as obedience and what the NT actually requires. Some witnesses unquestionably substitute obedience to Christ with obedience to the governing body. It's a matter of trust. They trust that the GB teaches God's word; I don't trust them any farther than I can throw them. And as a very small woman [4' 10" and 88 lbs] I can't trow them very far.Posts by vienne
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101Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
double post for some reason. sorry
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
you make assertions without backing them up. show us the actual text.
Witnesses believe they are the one true religion. That's a given. They over emphasize the place of their hierarchy. Certainly. But they still attribute salvation to Christ. The issue here isn't their view of themselves as the one true religion, but it is to whom do they attribute salvation. In their theology that's Jesus, and only Jesus. The two issues are not the same.
The governing body sends a mixed message. They claim they are appointed by God, an abuse of the plain meaning of Matthew twenty-four. They believe they are the one true religion. They believe that they lead adherents to Christ's salvation. They also believe there is no salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice. The baptismal questions were cited earlier, and they show that.
Except in definition of terms, we are not far apart. My point is that we should be exact in terms if we wish to have an impact on adherents. I also do not think it is my duty to convert a Witness. We all come to Christ at his father's leading. I think that's the point of John 4. Doubt is more common among Witnesses than they will admit. But there is also a considerable resistance to arguments that do not fit the case. Suggesting that Witnesses believe that salvation comes through the Governing Body is off the mark. Witnesses do not teach that. They do teach that the Governing Body feeds them truth. That's questionable on many levels.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
quote the original.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
you mean you don't like it. It's very plain. You wish it otherwise. An effective rebuttal of the WTS is accurate and uses terms as they are intended to be used. Wild claims defeat your cause. I'm not certain you know what "obtuse" means.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
Saying that their organization is spirit directed does not imply that it has any role in redemption. How does that differ from the Apostles telling adherents to chose for themselves spirit filled men? That's in Acts. What you object to here is that Witnesses believe they are the one true Christian faith and that if you aren't one of them, then you aren't really a Christian. I am sympathetic to that view and share the objection with you. However, this does not make the claim that anyone but Jesus and anything but his sacrifice is the basis for salvation.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
saying that its vital to stay with the congregation is new testament doctrine. JWs believe they are that congregation. However, that is not the same as saying that salvation comes through the church or its hierarchy.
I don't believe that JWs are the church of god in any sense beyond what any christian body is. But there are exclusivist churches out there that believe similarly. Plymouth Brethren would be one. Saying to stay with the church comes right out of Paul's mouth. It does not imply that the church provides the atonement or salvation.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
exact quotation please.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
Then make it. It's not Witness doctrine.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
This is what the Bible says about Jesus as mediator: “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance” -- Heb. 9:15.
This is not the work of reconciliation. This is an organizational covenant, just as the old [Mosaic] covenant was organizational. The question is, then, are the Great Crowd under the new covenant, or is there a separate "Israel of God," limited in number? If we answer as Jehovah's Witnesses do, that only a limited number are in the New Covenant, then all else is not. Jesus did not negotiate a covenant with them. If we answer as some others do, that every Christian is part of the new covenant, then the Great Crowd has Jesus as its mediator.
However we answer, an organizing covenant is not the work of reconciliation. That's Jesus' role as atonement sacrifice, and in that role, John the Apostle calls him the propitiatory sacrifice for all. The two terms are distinct both in English and in Greek. Purposely confusing them, as some are doing here, persuades only the choir.
Being exact and accurate in our criticism matters.