Posts by vienne

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

Your answers are not specific. They're your beliefs and suppositions, but you do not present solid evidence. You miss-define terms. Our arguments become ineffective when we do that. I understand you do not like the Watchtower. If you wish to express your distaste in effective terms then be exact with definitions and present some evidence, say in the form of a quotation from an original Watchtower source that says what you claim it does.

If you were one of my students, I'd return your work and suggest that you improve it. Do not make claims that cannot be sustained. You have complaints? Don't most of us here? yet to be effective we should be accurate, exacting in claims. And we should back up what we say with some sort of proof. Or we're just yelling up our sleeve. Our words come back to ridicule us. Don't do that.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I just expect a respect for language and a respect for proof.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

GND

Your comments are historically incorrect.Neither Russell nor Rutherford were newspaper publishers. The Watch Tower society in the Russell era operated at a financial loss consistently. Did either teach biblical truth? Not often. Even Jehovah's Witnesses will shrug off as 'old light' what they taught.

But yes, if we ARE Christian, the Bible is the basis for our belief. That said, ranting is not refutation. You want to do more than preach to others who hold your opinion, then present facts and not suppositions. I don't think you have even a basic understanding of Watch Tower history.

Other than my own books, which of course I recommend, you might benefit from Zoe Knox' most recent book and from George Chryssides' Jehovah's Witnesses: Continuity and Change.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

That too is not exactly what the WT teaches. They teach that salvation depends on obedience to Christ. That's 'truth' in a biblical sense. But then they miss-define to what me must be obedient. Some things we can describe as obedience are defined by Jesus and others by the apostles. Is it obedience to testify to Christ to our neighbors? Yes. Is it obedience to circulate specific literature and report our hours or minutes? That's not in the new testament at all. Is it obedience to be submissive to those 'taking the lead.' Yes, but that depends on where they are leading, doesn't it? Most here have experienced elders passing on as firmly established NT rules their personal opinions. The WT sees suspending our conscience to the GB's commands as being submissive to those leading. That's contrary to the New Testament.

You might note that you've left the main point. I understand that this is an issue too. But it's off the topic here. I know many Witnesses who would if discussing this with you say that there is a difference between obedience to Christ and salvation by works. The issue, I suppose, is what one sees as obedience and what the NT actually requires. Some witnesses unquestionably substitute obedience to Christ with obedience to the governing body. It's a matter of trust. They trust that the GB teaches God's word; I don't trust them any farther than I can throw them. And as a very small woman [4' 10" and 88 lbs] I can't trow them very far.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

double post for some reason. sorry

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

you make assertions without backing them up. show us the actual text.

Witnesses believe they are the one true religion. That's a given. They over emphasize the place of their hierarchy. Certainly. But they still attribute salvation to Christ. The issue here isn't their view of themselves as the one true religion, but it is to whom do they attribute salvation. In their theology that's Jesus, and only Jesus. The two issues are not the same.

The governing body sends a mixed message. They claim they are appointed by God, an abuse of the plain meaning of Matthew twenty-four. They believe they are the one true religion. They believe that they lead adherents to Christ's salvation. They also believe there is no salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice. The baptismal questions were cited earlier, and they show that.

Except in definition of terms, we are not far apart. My point is that we should be exact in terms if we wish to have an impact on adherents. I also do not think it is my duty to convert a Witness. We all come to Christ at his father's leading. I think that's the point of John 4. Doubt is more common among Witnesses than they will admit. But there is also a considerable resistance to arguments that do not fit the case. Suggesting that Witnesses believe that salvation comes through the Governing Body is off the mark. Witnesses do not teach that. They do teach that the Governing Body feeds them truth. That's questionable on many levels.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

quote the original.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

you mean you don't like it. It's very plain. You wish it otherwise. An effective rebuttal of the WTS is accurate and uses terms as they are intended to be used. Wild claims defeat your cause. I'm not certain you know what "obtuse" means.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

Saying that their organization is spirit directed does not imply that it has any role in redemption. How does that differ from the Apostles telling adherents to chose for themselves spirit filled men? That's in Acts. What you object to here is that Witnesses believe they are the one true Christian faith and that if you aren't one of them, then you aren't really a Christian. I am sympathetic to that view and share the objection with you. However, this does not make the claim that anyone but Jesus and anything but his sacrifice is the basis for salvation.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

saying that its vital to stay with the congregation is new testament doctrine. JWs believe they are that congregation. However, that is not the same as saying that salvation comes through the church or its hierarchy.

I don't believe that JWs are the church of god in any sense beyond what any christian body is. But there are exclusivist churches out there that believe similarly. Plymouth Brethren would be one. Saying to stay with the church comes right out of Paul's mouth. It does not imply that the church provides the atonement or salvation.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

exact quotation please.