Posts by vienne

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

dear 2

I'm not a witness. But I have attended many meetings and have relatives who are witnesses. My first meeting was with my mother when I was 11. The last was about a month ago when one of my nephews gave a talk. I don't think we're far apart except in the matter of 'terms used.'

GND

I gave you links to my published works, at least some of them. You're still ranting. I don't have an agenda beyond being exact with definitions and terms. You are not. You provided no proof. Sorry you can't do anything but be vulgar and throw temper tantrums. But that's probably why you are no longer a Witness. You certainly did not learn anything about the religion while you were associated with it.

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you yourself will be just like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

you've presented NO evidence. That's the point. You miss-define terms, you insult, but you do not present anything to support your point beyond mere assertion. There is no point in arguing with you. You'd need some sort of rationality, and you lack it.

Claiming authorship?

https://www.amazon.com/Separate-Identity-Organizational-Readers-1870-1887/dp/1304969401 by Schulz and de Vienne

http://www.lulu.com/shop/b-w-schulz/nelson-barbour-the-millenniums-forgotten-prophet/paperback/product-5424152.html by Schulz and de Vienne

You can also download an article by us entitled Nelson Barbour: The Time-ists last Breath. Google it.

I've also written things not related to Witnesses. eg http://wardancingpixie.blogspot.com/2009/12/it-was-best-seller.html

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

misogynistic pig? You missed the point that I'm a woman, didn't you. I'm not surprised. Your temper tantrum got the better of you. Requiring you to prove your point is not misogynistic. Proof is not mere assertion. It seems that assertion is all you have.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

Learn in my lifetime? I'm a long term educator a retired professor of history. I write Witness history, and have studied it at greater depth than you have. You've retreated to ad hominem because you're unable to address the facts of the case. What you have that I do not is a huge store of anger and an equally large feeling of inadequacy.

Don't call names. It dossn't suit you.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

Your answers are not specific. They're your beliefs and suppositions, but you do not present solid evidence. You miss-define terms. Our arguments become ineffective when we do that. I understand you do not like the Watchtower. If you wish to express your distaste in effective terms then be exact with definitions and present some evidence, say in the form of a quotation from an original Watchtower source that says what you claim it does.

If you were one of my students, I'd return your work and suggest that you improve it. Do not make claims that cannot be sustained. You have complaints? Don't most of us here? yet to be effective we should be accurate, exacting in claims. And we should back up what we say with some sort of proof. Or we're just yelling up our sleeve. Our words come back to ridicule us. Don't do that.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I just expect a respect for language and a respect for proof.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

GND

Your comments are historically incorrect.Neither Russell nor Rutherford were newspaper publishers. The Watch Tower society in the Russell era operated at a financial loss consistently. Did either teach biblical truth? Not often. Even Jehovah's Witnesses will shrug off as 'old light' what they taught.

But yes, if we ARE Christian, the Bible is the basis for our belief. That said, ranting is not refutation. You want to do more than preach to others who hold your opinion, then present facts and not suppositions. I don't think you have even a basic understanding of Watch Tower history.

Other than my own books, which of course I recommend, you might benefit from Zoe Knox' most recent book and from George Chryssides' Jehovah's Witnesses: Continuity and Change.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

That too is not exactly what the WT teaches. They teach that salvation depends on obedience to Christ. That's 'truth' in a biblical sense. But then they miss-define to what me must be obedient. Some things we can describe as obedience are defined by Jesus and others by the apostles. Is it obedience to testify to Christ to our neighbors? Yes. Is it obedience to circulate specific literature and report our hours or minutes? That's not in the new testament at all. Is it obedience to be submissive to those 'taking the lead.' Yes, but that depends on where they are leading, doesn't it? Most here have experienced elders passing on as firmly established NT rules their personal opinions. The WT sees suspending our conscience to the GB's commands as being submissive to those leading. That's contrary to the New Testament.

You might note that you've left the main point. I understand that this is an issue too. But it's off the topic here. I know many Witnesses who would if discussing this with you say that there is a difference between obedience to Christ and salvation by works. The issue, I suppose, is what one sees as obedience and what the NT actually requires. Some witnesses unquestionably substitute obedience to Christ with obedience to the governing body. It's a matter of trust. They trust that the GB teaches God's word; I don't trust them any farther than I can throw them. And as a very small woman [4' 10" and 88 lbs] I can't trow them very far.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

double post for some reason. sorry

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

you make assertions without backing them up. show us the actual text.

Witnesses believe they are the one true religion. That's a given. They over emphasize the place of their hierarchy. Certainly. But they still attribute salvation to Christ. The issue here isn't their view of themselves as the one true religion, but it is to whom do they attribute salvation. In their theology that's Jesus, and only Jesus. The two issues are not the same.

The governing body sends a mixed message. They claim they are appointed by God, an abuse of the plain meaning of Matthew twenty-four. They believe they are the one true religion. They believe that they lead adherents to Christ's salvation. They also believe there is no salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice. The baptismal questions were cited earlier, and they show that.

Except in definition of terms, we are not far apart. My point is that we should be exact in terms if we wish to have an impact on adherents. I also do not think it is my duty to convert a Witness. We all come to Christ at his father's leading. I think that's the point of John 4. Doubt is more common among Witnesses than they will admit. But there is also a considerable resistance to arguments that do not fit the case. Suggesting that Witnesses believe that salvation comes through the Governing Body is off the mark. Witnesses do not teach that. They do teach that the Governing Body feeds them truth. That's questionable on many levels.

101

Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

by atomant in

lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

vienne

quote the original.