Posts by vienne
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3Separate Identity vol 2 [Mom's book]
by vienne ina brief review of mom and b’s newest work found in the french journal: .
mouvements religieux: bulletin publié par l’association d’etude et d’information sur les mouvements religieux, mars – avril 2020, numéro 476-477. .
cet ouvrage monumental est fondamental sur l’histoire des étudiants de la bible, de leurs pr'écurseurs et des débuts de leur histoire.
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Separate Identity vol 2 [Mom's book]
by vienne ina brief review of mom and b’s newest work found in the french journal: .
mouvements religieux: bulletin publié par l’association d’etude et d’information sur les mouvements religieux, mars – avril 2020, numéro 476-477. .
cet ouvrage monumental est fondamental sur l’histoire des étudiants de la bible, de leurs pr'écurseurs et des débuts de leur histoire.
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vienne
A brief review of Mom and B’s newest work found in the French journal:
MOUVEMENTS RELIGIEUX: Bulletin publié par l’Association d’Etude et d’Information sur les Mouvements Religieux, Mars – Avril 2020, Numéro 476-477.
Cet ouvrage monumental est fondamental sur l’histoire des étudiants de la Bible, de leurs pr'écurseurs et des débuts de leur histoire.
"This monumental work is fundamental to the history of Bible Students, their forerunners and the beginnings of their history."
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Have you Witnessed a Change in People's Life-Style / Behaviour where you Live?
by smiddy3 ini certainly have , over the normal week i go to one of two clubs where i have two beers over a couple of hours ( i pace myself ) and catch up with a few friends .
one of the clubs every hour goes around to disinfect everywhere people make contact with pokies /machines or whatever we might touch.and they also now have limits as to how many can be in a certain area at any one time.and that applies to both clubs ,except one does not disinfect every hour.. today, their were far fewer people in this particular club that i attended that is usually bustling with patrons on a saturday either drinking gambling and socializing .not today.
and a strict rule of how many could be in a certain area at any one time .. and i agree with all of this , its necessary .and i will be monitoring my own activities as need be.. what have you noticed in your neck of the woods.?
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vienne
I'm too young to drive. I turned 15 this month. But my dad and I drive a short stretch of the Interstate to get to our pasture. There is traffic, but not very much. Our often noisy neighborhood [many little kids shouting and playing] is very, very quiet. We stay in as much as possible. I've played more card games with my sister than we usually play in a year. School is online. I miss my friends, though we chat on the phone or text.
Dad works from home. His company's offices are closed. Everything is on the Internet or phone. Dad's trip to Germany to inspect a project has been indefinably cancelled. Cousins living in England and France don't go anywhere. Life is not the same.
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Mom's book
by vienne inmom's book, still only available on lulu, got its first review: .
http://www.lulu.com/shop/b-w-schulz/separate-identity-organizational-identity-among-readers-of-zions-watch-tower-1870-1887-volume-2-culture-and-organization/paperback/product-24467519.html.
"like topsy it just growed.
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vienne
Another new review of Separate Identity vol. 2
SATURDAY, MARCH 21, 2020
Some thoughts on the new book
This is a collection of thoughts on Separate Identity volume 2, which has now arrived, as a suitably doorstop-sized package. It is nice to be able to thumb through it and examine it, and not just see pages in isolation on a computer screen.It has been a long wait, but the book is not disappointing.What aspect of the contents have I particularly enjoyed? Here are some personal thoughts.One is the way the book turns around perceived accounts by delving deep into original sources.As an example, I’ve always been interested in the premise that CTR visited various areas and started 30 congregations in the first year or so of ZWT. On the face of it, that sounds good and the way the Bible Student movement ultimately grew and developed is a matter of record. But the question remained - for these very early days, where did these people come from? They didn’t come out of the ether. They would have to be people with a prior interest; otherwise why would CTR go to their particular towns? Using information from existing magazines, including Storrs’ Bible Examiner and Barbour’s Herald, and other sources pre-dating Zion’s Watch Tower, the authors tracked down what can be known about those people and places. There were numerous independent local fellowships that came and went. These accepted speakers from all over, read papers from all over, and continued to do so for some years. Ultimately people had to choose. Some eventually chose Zion’s Watch Tower. But the background and details, brings this period alive.Other examples: while opposition and personal attacks were there from the start, it was interesting to note how some clergy from established religions gave up their living and joined the fold. And from where did the majority of CTR’s early Allegheny Bible class come? Not the Adventists as commonly held, but from the Methodists! And every point that turns established concepts on their head is supported by volumous footnotes.The other aspect I particularly enjoyed is the history of key individuals, which will obviously come even more to the fore in volume three. I am always happy to have detailed life stories, be they of the good, the bad, or the downright ugly. There are so many unknown or almost forgotten characters out there, and the bad ones are often the most interesting – at a distance. The Society’s own histories tend to concentrate on CTR and those who stayed with him. And quite naturally they focus on things from the early days that tie in with their modern mission. But a wider picture can be seen by following up the lives of some of those who started with CTR but then branched off. The theological mindset of those who became Universalists meant that some, like John Paton, tried hard to keep tabs on everyone. So the authors of Separate Identity have extracted details from such sources that, while theologically suspect for some of us today, do fill in the gaps in real history.Still another aspect I liked is that the narrative is not just America based. Obviously American features prominently – Allegheny, CTR and all that – but a lot of books seem to be so America-centric it’s as if the rest of the world outside their bubble doesn’t exist. So the foreign language field at home and then abroad is an important section of this volume, and fills a gap generally unfilled (until the recent European series started appearing).And context is also stressed. What was the world like in that part of the world at the time? What were popular beliefs of mainstream religion and why did people believe what they did? If you try and superimpose modern beliefs and attitudes on the 1870s and 1880s you miss the point that while some aspects of developing Watch Tower theology raised conservative eyebrows, much was mainstream belief. Rightly or wrongly, it is much of so-called mainstream belief of the day that has moved on.It has to be noted that the book is long. One of my correspondents baulked at the thought of 600 pages to add onto the previous 360 plus pages, and more to come. (With final formatting I see the same contents are down slightly to 555 pages). Well, frankly, this book is not for that person. You can’t really judge Separate Identity on the same terms as a commercial production. A commercial production is designed to make money, through appealing to the largest group of people who may buy it. A commercial editor would have reduced the size, and even in academic publishing I believe would have done so. It wouldn’t then be the same book but just another book in the WT history shelves. The length and detail make it unique, even if that may discourage some who could be dismissed as casual readers.That is NOT a criticism, because the aim was to cover the minutiae, and so the discovered details dictate the length. Probably the only way to achieve this was by self-publishing; and as long as the formatting and layout remain professional looking – which it does - then that is fine.As described in the introduction, there is some overlap of material in some chapters. The plan of the book means this is inevitable, and with two authors writing over years and not writing in chronological order means you can’t help this happening a bit. But adding an occasional “who we met earlier” “as discussed in chapter x” etc. (I paraphrase here) shows the book has been proof read as a whole and you are “aware” of its total contents. I think that is important to support the “professional” feel, and on my last read through this has succeeded.So if you haven’t ordered your copy (and extras for a friends) – please, do it now! -
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Mom's book
by vienne inmom's book, still only available on lulu, got its first review: .
http://www.lulu.com/shop/b-w-schulz/separate-identity-organizational-identity-among-readers-of-zions-watch-tower-1870-1887-volume-2-culture-and-organization/paperback/product-24467519.html.
"like topsy it just growed.
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vienne
The latest review of Separate Identity vol 2.
By Andrew GrzadzielewskiMar 15, 2020For anyone interested in the history of the Watchtower Society, this book is a MUST read. And not only this book, Separate Identity Volume 2, but also its predecessor, Separate Identity Volume 1. Both books in the series bring to light information about the early days of the Watchtower Society that even the Watchtower Society's own official histories do not. In particular, those fascinated by the person of Charles Taze Russell, who are interested in a more detailed look into his background, the evolution of his belief system, and his relationship to those who both revered and reviled him, this book will be a treasure. Some considered Russell a saint, others a con man. The true picture of Russell and his associates is much more complicated, and the incredibly comprehensive details Schulz and de Vienne have unearthed make this book one you will likely have trouble putting down. In the book, filled with astonishing detail, the authors have carefully followed Russell's journey through several decades of his life, and thoroughly give multiple insights into the mind of the man, how he came to believe what he believed, who influenced him, what teachings from others he accepted, which ones he rejected, and what motivated many of his readers to modify their own belief systems. An incredible amount of research has gone into telling the stories of dozens of people who became WatchTower adherents, some of whom stayed with Russell, and others who drifted away into other beliefs. In many cases their stories have never been told. Their histories are an essential part of the WatchTower story. In particular, Russell's belief about his own identity as an instrument used by God springs in large part from the enormous amount of letters he received from grateful readers, many who saw him as such an instrument. Using original sources, Schulz and de Vienne have shone a light on a period of WatchTower history many had thought was unrecoverable. They humbly concede that their work is only preliminary; but even if it is, the comprehensive nature of their work will surprise many who either thought they know much about WatchTower history, or had lost hope that it would ever come to light in such astonishing detail. Get this book! And then lend it out to anyone you know who has an interest in 19th and 20th century religion. It is a story that should have been told long ago. It is a monumental achievement. -
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Mom's book
by vienne inmom's book, still only available on lulu, got its first review: .
http://www.lulu.com/shop/b-w-schulz/separate-identity-organizational-identity-among-readers-of-zions-watch-tower-1870-1887-volume-2-culture-and-organization/paperback/product-24467519.html.
"like topsy it just growed.
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vienne
Vol 2 has about twice as many pages making it more expensive. Zoe Knox's book is nearly $100. That makes Separate Identity 2 more than reasonabe in price.
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End of world predictions/ JW's
by exwhyzee ini thought this was an interesting site that discusses end of world predictions.
http://www.humanreligions.info/the_end_of_the_world.html.
there are additional links at the end of this page.
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vienne
Neither Bible Students nor Jehovah's Witnesses believe in or ever believe in the end of the world. They believe in a divine judgment, not the Adventist end of the world. They reject end of the world theology.
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Mom's book
by vienne inmom's book, still only available on lulu, got its first review: .
http://www.lulu.com/shop/b-w-schulz/separate-identity-organizational-identity-among-readers-of-zions-watch-tower-1870-1887-volume-2-culture-and-organization/paperback/product-24467519.html.
"like topsy it just growed.
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vienne
Mom's book, still only available on lulu, got its first review:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/b-w-schulz/separate-identity-organizational-identity-among-readers-of-zions-watch-tower-1870-1887-volume-2-culture-and-organization/paperback/product-24467519.html
"Like topsy it just growed. That paraphrased nod towards Uncle Tom’s Cabin can be applied to this series of books. It started off small, or at least as a limited project. Then it grew. And grew. It is still growing. That is not a criticism but singles this book as different from the rest when it comes to Watch Tower and related history. The two authors, Bruce Schulz and the late Rachael de Vienne, first produced a book on Nelson Barbour, the forgotten prophet. That was intended as a journal article, but it grew into a book. A follow-up, Separate Identity, was designed as a stand alone book, tracing the history of the Watch Tower Society from its pre-history with young Charles Taze Russell up to its emergence as a separate movement. That one volume has now grown into two, and a third is needed to complete the story. This makes the books special. Had there been a commercial publisher, an editor would have been ruthless and cut them down to size. Out would have gone the details, the digressions, the multitude of footnotes and references to send obsessive researchers down other research trails. A casual reader interested in Watch Tower history has other options, but for a serious researcher the Schulz and de Vienne series fills in the gaps and rescues numerous individuals and events from obscurity. No-one else has ever done that. Do you need to have volume one before reading volume two? Ideally it would help, but is not essential. Volume one doesn’t even get up to the first issue of Zion’s Watch Tower. The volume under review basically starts with the original Watchtower magazine, goes onto Food for Thinking Christians, and sets the scene for a worldwide witnessing work that indeed started small, but grew. It If your interest only really starts in 1879, then you can leap straight into this volume, although you will find references to the first volume in it. The authors strive to be neither apologists nor polemicists, but even-handed, going where the evidence takes them. Like most readers this reviewer has a point of view which doesn’t always square with everything in the book, but they can be credited with a valiant effort to be fair. If your interest has got you as far as looking up this book and reading the reviews, then takes my word for it - this has to be a book for you."He didn't like mom's criticism of the modern Watchtower. But he otherwise liked the book. And he gave it five stars. There's a convoluted process to get the book on amazon and other bookseller sites. I don't know why. -
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Separate Identity - Volume Two
by vienne inmom and b’s book went to the publisher today.
it will not be available for purchase for maybe three weeks or so, a little later than hoped.
i’ve read it through twice.
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Separate Identity - Volume Two
by vienne inmom and b’s book went to the publisher today.
it will not be available for purchase for maybe three weeks or so, a little later than hoped.
i’ve read it through twice.
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vienne
Mom and B’s book went to the publisher today. It will not be available for purchase for maybe three weeks or so, a little later than hoped. But let me tell you about it. I’ve read it through twice. If you do not like long books, it’s not for you. Counting the two introductory essays it is 607 pages long. If you read volume one, you’ll probably remember that it took the story from Russell’s antecedents to his separation from Barbour. This volume follows that. It does not consider all the divisions and strife that took place, but focuses on the foundation years of Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society. Mom and Bruce Schulz pushed all the divisions and that sort of thing off into a volume three.
I may be prejudice because Mom wrote it, but I think her preface is one of the best parts of the book. B in his essay takes a certain class of writers to task for bad work and touches on the origins of Russell era Watch Tower faith. It’s good. He shows that some writers whom he names made things up. Mom’s essay is mildly critical of the Watchtower Society. The criticisms set off a storm of protest from Witnesses who read parts of it on their history blog. But it’s mild and fair. The best part is a discussion of the historic antecedents of Russell’s beliefs. It is different than you might expect, and not much like some of the things you read on this discussion board.
Unlike most books about Watchtower thinking and history, Mom and B tell you about people you probably never hear of before. Russell did not make the Watch Tower Society on his own. So they tell you about early evangelists the modern Watchtower ignores, some of whom left that religion. This is not a redo of Proclaimers. There is a huge amount of detail that I think recreates Watch Tower history in a very vivid way. An example is an examination of early Watch Tower finances. And names – people who do not appear in books written by Witnesses who further the story, J. B. Adamson for one.
There is no fake scandal here. But real life events. How about a Watch Tower evangelist who disrupted a Presbyterian meeting to throw tracts at the clergymen meeting there? There are two chapters that narrowly focus on specific early believers. One is English and the other was a prominent Southern writer who was a bit odd. More than a bit.
I really can’t tell you about Mom’s book in any detail or this would be a very, very long post. But there’s a chapter on early clergymen who joined in the movement. Some stayed with it, and some did not. There are some fairly detailed and revealing biographies of early evangelists and adherents with pictures! I like historic photos. Don’t you? Bet you’ve never seen most of these.
The focus is very narrow. Mostly it's on the years from 1879 to 1881. They expected to go to heaven in 1881. They didn't. Volume 3 will take us up to 1887, the end of this thee volume book and the start of the next, projected to cover 1887 to 1916.
There are biographies of some who left the Watch Tower in the early days, people the modern Watchtower ignores. There is a chapter on how and why the Watch Tower grew, one on the earliest days of Zion’s Watch Tower that tells you about Maria Russell’s place in it. I loved this book.
Look for it in about three weeks on lulu.com or Amazon or other bookseller sites.
-Annie