vienne

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Posts by vienne

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  8

  History Puzzle

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm trying to solve a mystery for uncle b. he owns three antique tracts that were bound into one volume for william morris wright, for six years a society director.

  two are easy to identify.

  its title is: "the times of the gentiles, and the things which are.

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  vienne

  The truthhistory blog belongs to B. W. Schulz, FRHistS. He's my uncle B. The author oc that post is a Wwitness. I appreciate your help and the links.
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  5

  Do you agree with this?

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  new post to the history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2023/05/typical-nonsense.html.

  i agree that in the russell and rutherford eras there was little actual scriptural refutation.

  fine!

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  vienne

  New post to the history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2023/05/typical-nonsense.html

  I agree that in the Russell and Rutherford eras there was little actual scriptural refutation. Fine! True ... But, if 'truth' pours out the the mouth of a disreputable man, is it ethical to note his behavior as part of one's refutation? I hope that sentence made sense. I'm thinking in general terms. Much of what is written about Russell and Rutherford's character is myth. And, of course, those reporting accusations should verify them first.

  When mom was assisting uncle B write the first two Separate Identity books, she talked B into removing part of a footnote that reported the prison sentence of the author of an academic article. So the footnote only focuses on the man's sloppy research. What do you think?
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  46

  Does the WTS have a clergy class (yes-no)

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  wt 2021 october p.20 "in contrast, true worshippers of jehovah have no clergy.

  although we respect those who are taking the lead, we accept jesus’ clear teaching: “all of you are brothers.”".

  ijbq article 92 point 6: in contrast, true worshippers of jehovah have no clergy.

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  vienne

  Of course they have a clergy. Elders, Deacons, Bishops, etc. Except they call them Elders, Ministerial Servants, and Circuit Overseers.

  And IF you think they're all on a equal footing, attend a regional convention or circuit overseer's visit and listen to the introductions.
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  8

  History Puzzle

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm trying to solve a mystery for uncle b. he owns three antique tracts that were bound into one volume for william morris wright, for six years a society director.

  two are easy to identify.

  its title is: "the times of the gentiles, and the things which are.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  I'm trying to solve a mystery for Uncle B. He owns three antique tracts that were bound into one volume for William Morris Wright, for six years a Society director. Two are easy to identify. The third is not. Its title is: "The Times of the Gentiles, and The Things Which Are." It's lacking a title page and no author is evident, but worldcat gives Caleb Jason Baker as its author.

  I cannot connect Baker to Russell or to Wright in any fashion. Can you?

  It might help to know that the other two tracts date to 1888 and 1894.
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  50

  To All Those Keen To Tell Us About Their Beliefs

  by Simon in

  1. forum
  2. announcements

  we seem to have had an influx of religiots - the people who want to tell us all about how we / the wts / whoever are wrong, wrong, wrong about everything and how right they are.

  they obviously have special insight, or voices (probably voices, right?

  ) telling them the real truth.. as proof, there is inevitably a wall of random scripture references and quotes.. sorry, but we're not here for that.

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  vienne

  A long-standing Protestant dictum, often ignored by clergy, is Sola Scriptura. The Bible alone. Our recent discussion of the Trinity doctrine wasn't a Bible discussion; it was a discussion of philosophy, church doctrine without reference to the Bible's actual content and ultimately stultifying. I agree with Simon. Things like that get out of hand.

  I already know what the gaggle of 'Church Fathers' wrote. I do not care what a Papal Encyclical said.

  I am not now nor have I ever been a member ... umm I've never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not belong to any church. But I do have academic standards. The recent discussion seldom met any sort of academic standard. Much of it was an exercise in academic malpractice.

  I can tolerate things like that. Mostly, though, it was like watching a train wreck.

  I cannot tolerate our "prophets" who think they're God's spokesman to wayward Witnesses. ... Who think they are clued into modern prophetic fulfillments. Just stop it. Get some counseling.
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  30

  Jehovah's Witnesses and Mental Health

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this psychiatrist makes sense to me.. https://youtu.be/l5wcqc6m-gi.

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  vienne

  His autobiography is here:

  https://www.rae.org/essay-links/bergman/
  
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  30

  Jehovah's Witnesses and Mental Health

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this psychiatrist makes sense to me.. https://youtu.be/l5wcqc6m-gi.

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  vienne

  Somewhere, (I'm not hunting for it) I read that one of his degrees was related to security issues. I don't know if that's accurate. He is a well-known young-earth creationist. The quality of his writing is pretty much indifferent.

  He claims to be a Fellow of the American Scientific Affiliation. They do not award Fellowships.

  i've never pursued his educational claims which are::

  Education

  • M.S.O.H. (Master of Science in Occupational Health), Medical College of Ohio, Toledo, Ohio, 2004.
  • M.P.H. M.P.H. (Master of Science in Public Health), Northwest Ohio Consortium for Public Health (Medical College of Ohio, Toledo, Ohio; University of Toledo, Toledo, Ohio; Bowling Green State University, Bowling Green, Ohio), 2001.
  • M.S.B.S. (Master of Science in Biomedical Science), Medical College of Ohio, Toledo, Ohio, 1999.
  • Ph.D. in human biology, Columbia Pacific University, San Rafael, California, 1992. [An infamous diploma mill.]
  • M.A. in social psychology, Bowling Green State University, Bowling Green, Ohio, 1986.
  • Ph.D. in measurement and evaluation, minor in psychology, Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan, 1976.
  • M.Ed. in counseling and psychology, Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan, 1971.
  • B.S., Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan, 1970. Major area of study was sociology, biology, and psychology.
  • A.A. in Biology and Behavioral Science, Oakland Community College, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, 1967.
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  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  vienne

  "It is even conceptually impossible, since only God can create. Creation is an exclusively divine ability, and no created being can even serve as a means for creation. God is the unique source of creation, as He does not cooperate with any tools, partners, or materials in the work of creation. God's creative activity is exclusive. No one and nothing can create as God does. The creative capacity of God is an incommunicable attribute for any creature. To be able to create, that is, to bring existence from nonexistence, one must be God."

  None of these claims are supported by scripture. The prepositional phrase ἐν αὐτῷ does not read "by him" but "in him." That implies agency not actor. Christ is, according to Paul, the agent of God's creation. He is not the originator of it nor the designer of it.

  Additionally, Paul uses the metaphor of a son's relationship to his father. He is the image of God. The word translated image derives from the impress of a master die on a coin. Christ is not the original, but the 'spitting image' of God. He is begotten - called elsewhere the 'only begotten' son. The very word implies an origin. And we have an origin attached to him in Malachi and in 1 John. John describes Jesus as ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς, that is "from the beginning," and Malachi describes Jesus as having an origin. Five / two reads according to the AV " But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." The Hebrew from which "goings forth" is derived implies an origin.

  No matter what slant one puts on "firstborn" - whether we take it to me 'principal one" or literally 'first of all' it is still "of creation." Jesus is classed with creation. He is the agent of the creator.

  In Colossians Paul is refuting a Gnostic sect prevalent in Colossae that taught that there were many intermediaries between God and man. Paul says there is only one, Jesus who is God's first work, his firstborn, who is "of creation."

  You misstate Watchtower belief. You craft straw man arguments. You seek to diminish Slim's arguments by insulting his sources rather than refuting the actual point. An example is your comment on John Locke whose "Reasonableness of Christianity" is a classic. The issue here is what the Scriptures actually say, not what the vain philosophies of speculative writers have said. And restating how you wish it to be is not proof of your claims. Much of your 'argument' is based on one of the major logic flaws: that of repetition of claims without further proof.

  I've had my say, I suppose. Now I leave this to you two to hash out.
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  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  vienne

  Do you even know who John Locke was? His place in Christian history? You spew but you do not address the arguments.
• 
  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  vienne

  aqws is fond of strawman arguments and false assumptions. They allow him to avoid the point.