Posts by Norm

22

Dominance, Control = Kingdom? .....NOT!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom 2 corinthians 3:17. i see a common attitude in ex-jws that i at one time would have said see, thats the way apostates are.

it is the mutual resentment of being controlled.

some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived.

Norm

Hi again Jst2laws,

Norm,
Thank you for your thoughts. As I explained in the past to Farkel I am not experience enough, young enough nor smart enough to respond line for line. I’m more into concepts then obsessing over technicalities. But admittedly technicalities are the foundation of concepts so I will try to address some of your issues.

The question of the Bible’s credibility as a guide on how to live our lives seem to me far more than a mere technicality. As literature I find the Bible interesting and fascinating. As the “word of God” it is nothing but a thorough disaster. A disaster for God, if he exist, and an even greater disaster for the believer. It is quite a juggling act to make any sense out of the contradictory mess.

Total freedom. Please do not judge me are my comments on the basis of what Christendom has said or done, nor by what the WT teaches. Neither of us go along with that. However, the freedom Jesus and Paul spoke of may have been different issues. Paul’s message was vital but limited to freedom from guilt and works of self justification, but in Hebrews he touched on the bigger issues of total freedom.

Total freedom is in my opinion very much an illusion just like everlasting life. I am not judging you on anything, I am merely commenting on your comments, we are simply having a debate. It do however seem to me that you, like Christendom and the Watchtower Society are under the impression that the Bible contains some kind of information that is somehow valuable to us. I understand that you disagree with both the Watchtower Society and Christendom. As you know there are several thousand sects within the Christian camp which all have their personal “take” on the Bible, maybe that should tell us something?

Agreed, belief in him is necessary. Is this an infringement of freedom? What man is not dying. So here is someone saying reach out to me and I will pull you out of this. Are we going to resent his offer and complain he is telling us what to do?

As we can observe all living things die and are entering the cycle of decay and are re-circulated by the ecological system, all quite natural. That human beings live on after death or will get resurrected is of course neither here no there even though some old book written thousands of years ago make such claims. That some “believe” this doesn’t make it so. If Jesus really have such tremendous unselfish “unconditional” love for mankind he wouldn’t have to require any faith from us. If you sit down and really think about the concept of the old prune “Jesus died for us” it doesn’t make any sense at all. Nothing much of the whole matter makes much sense.

As for “do as I say or burn in hell forever” respectfully Norm, I don’t see that in the Bible. I quoted earlier Mat 11:29 where Jesus implores us to accept relief. He agrees religion has oppressed us and offers “refreshment”.

Of course, like any other believer in the Bible you pick and choose what to believe or not. I don’t mean this as any criticism, it is quite understandable, that’s the only way anyone can make something resembling sense out of the mess, to overlook some texts and use some other. You don’t like the texts about Hell so you dismiss them offhand. The only difference between us is that I dismiss it all.

We agree again. Although I have not separated myself from them I would not be here if I wanted to defend them. In an above post to Mommy I said, “they have made up a hierarchy that make the Pharisees look like passive liberals.”
The issues are what the Bible really says about freedom and how Jesus will bring this, not how abusers of authority have misrepresented it.

If Jesus has ever lived, he died many years ago as you know. That was the end of him, and he won’t do anything ever again like all the other millions of dead people, it is all a fantasy, snap out of it.

This is where I disagree with much of what Bishop Spong had to say.
His frequent references to Jesus belief in fiery Hell and torment is I believe a concept unsupported in scripture. I admit I’m relatively knew at looking at the scriptures with open eyes but it seems Biship Spong is arguing against flawed theology of Christendom rather than a flaw man. The teachings and the actions of professed Christians done in the name of Christ are not an indictment of Jesus but again an indictment of those who abuse authority in the name of God or Jesus.

Spong is of course a very educated man and is able to read the texts in their original languages. He is refreshingly honest about the problems with the scriptures. Spong is well aware of the various denominations theology but as you can see he isn’t addressing theology he is addressing certain texts in the very Bible, texts which he give the exact chapter and verse so you can look it up yourself. Surely you aren’t implying that those texts about hell isn’t to be found in the Bible, are you? Spong isn’t addressing flawed men, he is addressing what the Bible claim Jesus have said, do you believe in the Bible?

If we take any man or work and pick at it we will find what appear to be flaws and contradictions. Bishop Spong will find flaws, another such as Gandhi will praise him. To kill a tree, destroy a herd of pigs for one mans freedom or finally in the last week of his life condemn his enemies knowing they are plotting to kill him does not destroy the substance of what he taught in my mind.

What do you mean here? Are you saying that the Bible is the work of men? If so I very much agree with you. Are you saying that the man the Bible call Jesus was flawed? If we take the Bible at face value and that Jesus said and did the things that is recorded there, he was indeed flawed. So which is it? Is the Bible flawed, can it be trusted in what it claims about Jesus? Or is only the nice things about Jesus correct and the other texts false?

Agree with all but first line, “The Bible is an extremely unreliable source to use when it comes to freedom, moral and authority”. The Hebrew scriptures is a discussion of its own. Nearly everything contained there is a model of what God does not want. Granted, if the accounts are historical, God authorized, even demanded a lot of disturbing behavior. But as to freedom, God let man choose his course and now it was a mess. Everything he did with the Jews was a drama of how not to find freedom from guilt, oppression and death. No wonder Jesus was so opposed when he came with an entirely different message. He was the Reality that their bloody history pointed to. All that experience was a “shadow” of what God really had in mind. (Col. 2:17) It was so radically different from what you and I object to that the people of his time feared his teaching and killed him.

Well, as Spong pointed out the Bible show that Jesus was apparently thinking highly of the “Hebrew scriptures”. The rest of what you write above seem to be slightly edited Watchtower material and appear to be thoroughly confused, at least to me.

Now I’m exhausted. You got more out of me than I have available. I hope I was clear and inoffensive in my explanation. I may appear as a hopeless bible thumper to you but I believe God is Love as He claims and all the things you and I find unsettling is much more than that to him. The mess we are in He could have prevented but only at the cost of our FREEDOM. At least we seem to share a disdain for religionist who use fear, ignorance and their pretence of authority over us to control and harm people. We may only differ on who is responsible.
Jst2laws

I am sorry that it is such a drain on you. You are obviously a very nice man and I wish you all the best in life whatever you choose to make of it. I do not think you are a hopeless Bible thumper, but I think I might recognize the natural confusion we all suffer when we get our whole carefully constructed Watchtower house of cards blown away. It is a grueling task to make sense out of a lot of things after that. Don’t worry, eventually you will, take your time, make the mistakes you need to, and don’t be afraid of us, we will be here to help you.

There may be a God or something out there somewhere, but hopefully he haven’t got anything to do with the homicidal maniac portrayed in the Bible. If there is a God love isn’t a very noticeable quality in him/her anyway. Your claim that if God should have prevented the mess we are in would somehow be an infringement on our free will is totally bogus and not something you have been thinking through.
But it is late and we can come back to that later,

Take care,

Norm.

12

Reading Obituaries

by Norm in

jw
friends

in a norwegian local newspaper, a reader is being quite pissed off because some jehovah's witnesses accidentally showed up at her door just after her husband died.. apparently she is aware of such coincidences occurring before in the district to the extent that she dont think it is a coincidence at all.

of course the local jehovah's witness spokesman denies any such organized effort on the part of jehovah's witnesses.

they do not read obituaries to collect names, he claims.. so what do you have to say folks?

Norm

Hi outnfree,

It has always amazed me how the WT always pounce on others and lament how bad they are, while doing exactly the same themselves.
One should think it would be pretty obvious to the readers, but somehow it isn't.

Norm.

22

Dominance, Control = Kingdom? .....NOT!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom 2 corinthians 3:17. i see a common attitude in ex-jws that i at one time would have said see, thats the way apostates are.

it is the mutual resentment of being controlled.

some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived.

Norm

Hi Jst2laws,
You said:

“Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom” 2 Corinthians 3:17
I see a common attitude in ex-Jw’s that I at one time would have said “see, that’s the way apostates are.” It is the mutual resentment of being controlled. Some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived. It could be an elevated sensitivity to being controlled that we always had and that’s why we are here. This can’t be all bad considering the first mention of the concept of human dominance in the Bible was in the context of suffering.(Gen. 3) While some submission is required by God, I have the feeling dominance of any sort was not what God wanted.

I think you have to come out and define what you understand to be freedom? I am extremely skeptic to the concept of “freedom” as it appears in the Bible.
Neither Jesus nor Paul seemed to have any real idea about what freedom is. According to the Bible Jesus told us that we had to “believe” in him or else. If we don’t we do not deserve to exist. So his freedom is “do as I say or burn in hell forever.” Paul’s message isn’t much better.

Now merge this with the Kingdom of God issue. We Jw’s have been taught The kingdom of God is a government that deserves our submission because it will solve all mankind’s problems. When I came from the Baptist Church I liked the idea that the Kingdom is a Government because this is obviously what is needed. Who would not want a loving Authority to end suffering, war, poverty, sickness, even death. And Jesus, we are taught, demonstrated he could do all these things by the miracles. I still like this idea. What most of us here do not like is the oppressive control of the human organization that taught most of us these things.

History show us that the Christianity has made overwhelmingly more problems than it has ever solved. The Watchtower Society has adopted Jesus idea and given it their own slant, they say “join our organization or die.” The Watchtower Society is also an excellent representative of the fundamentalist branch of Christendom in the sense that they have been able to stamp “problems” out of thin air, and found problems where non have existed. To name a few examples. In Nordic pre-Christian culture, men and women were equals. In that culture it was customary for whole communities to build bath houses or saunas where the whole community were bathing together at least once a week. There was no shame connected to nakedness and no problems of a sexual nature connected with this arrangement. Of course this became a problem as soon as Christianity came. Much of the same things have happened everywhere Christian missionaries appeared.

But the ‘loving authority’, this Jesus Christ, was never linked with abuse of authority. He rarely ever exercised his authority, except over those who tried to control others. Thus dealing with the Pharisees, even demons, Jesus used his authority to stop abuse, but he himself came to be known as the man of tender mercy, love, and freedom. As the image of God he represented FREEDOM, NOT AUTHORITY.
“YOU were, of course, called for freedom”. Galatians 5:13
I now feel for some resenting authority may simply be a sensitivity to abuse of authority. Anytime our God given freedom is robbed from us or others this emotion is legitimate. I hope those who read this share my feeling that it is not God, the Bible, nor Jesus or the Kingdom that has hurt us, but MEN who abuse authority in the name of God, Jesus or the Kingdom. The Kingdom like the king of the kingdom will not abuse authority. If anything it will stop the abuse and teach freedom just as the King has done. Having accepted the old men in Brooklyn represent the reality of God’s Kingdom about as much as did the religious leaders of Jesus’ time, the idea of the kingdom no longer means to me government and control. I now think of the kingdom as a loving authority ending oppressive government and control.
Jst2laws

As long as God and Jesus have basically just given us “freedom” to accept their reality or die/burn in hell, I fail to see that it has anything to do with anything remotely resembling freedom at all. It reminds me a lot about the “freedom” Jehovah's Witnesses have regarding the use of blood. They have the “freedom”
not to use it.
If we are to believe the Bible at all we have no reason to be much impressed with God or Jesus at all. Read these very interesting and legitimate concern’s of Bishop Spong, from his Book, “Rescuing the Bible from the fundamentalists”:

“There are passages in the Gospels that portray Jesus of Nazareth as narrowminded, vindictive, and even hypocritical. Jesus exhorted people to love their enemies and to pray for their persecutors (Matt. 5:44) and never to call others by demeaning or hurtful names (Matt. 5:22), yet he called his enemies a "brood of snakes" (Matt. 12:34), "sons of vipers" (Matt. 23:33), "blind fools" (Matt. 23:17). He called gentiles "dogs" (Matt. 15:26). He said he had come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother (Matt. 10:35). He disowned his own family (Matt. 12:4650), hardly obeying the commandment to "honour your parents." These do not appear to be the words of one dedicated to preserving and strengthening the family, as the fundamentalist preachers have constantly asserted.
Are we drawn to a Lord who would destroy a herd of pigs and presumably a person's livelihood in order to exorcise a demon (Mark 5:13)? Are we impressed when the one we call Lord curses a fig tree because it did not bear fruit out of season (Matt. 21:18, 19)? How divine is the message that says for your finite failings you will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 25:30)? If the Bible is read literally, it must be said that Jesus seems to have accepted without question the language of hell employed by his religious contemporaries. Is eternal punishment the plan of the all merciful God? Was Jesus mistaken? Was the interpretation of Jesus given in these passages, which come primarily from Matthew, untrustworthy?
No matter how this question is resolved, the literal authority of the Gospels is compromised. Was belief in hell so common that Jesus simply reflected the values of his time unquestioningly? Hardly, since the Sadducees did not believe in any life after death, either as a reward or punishment. We know only that someone was convinced that Jesus did believe and teach that eternal punishment in a fiery hell was an appropriate sentence to pronounce on sinners. Is it? I for one do not believe it. Am I false to Jesus? False to Jesus' interpreters? False to God? I pray not!
Jesus is also depicted, especially in the Book of John, as being guilty of what we today would surely call anti-Semitism. Indeed, the hatred of the Jews that has been the dark underside of Christianity for two thousand years is fed by the pejorative attitudes found in the Christian Scriptures and even in the supposed words of Jesus. It has led to pogroms, ghettos, segregated housing and clubs, defaced synagogues, Krystallnacht, and Dachau. In the name of Jesus, damnation has been pronounced on those who do not accept Jesus' messiahship a charge leveled historically by Christians at the Jews. "His blood be upon us and upon our children," Matthew had the Jewish crowd say when Pilate sought to set Jesus free. From this phrase of Holy Writ the epithet "Christ killer" (Matt. 27:25) has been leveled at Jewish people ever since.
When John used the phrase "The Jews" (John 5:10; 10:19, 24, 31, 33; 19:7, 12, 14, 15) instead of "the Jewish leaders," he fed that corporate guilt that bloomed as bigotry and prejudice. John said that the Jewish people loved darkness more than light, for their deeds were evil (John 3:18 20), and he said the Jews were children of the devil, who was the father of lies (John 8:39 44). These words are hardly designed to build mutual respect. They are, to me, repugnant. Yet they are part of the Bible that many Christians even today ask me to take literally.
Paul added to this fuel by suggesting that Jews were possessed with "a spirit of stupor" that produced "eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear down to this very day" (Rom. 11:8). Finally, the history of the church from Tertullian and John Chrysostom to Jerome to Augustine to Aquinas to Luther to this generation has reflected a killing anti-Semitism that was rooted in the New Testament. Can a book responsible for these things be in any literal sense the Word of God to me? If Jesus was wrong in fact or in attitude, either Jesus himself or Jesus as viewed through Scripture has been compromised. Yet Jesus is presented in the Bible as believing that epilepsy is caused by demon possession (Mark 9:14 29). That is hardly a viewpoint that any of us would share today. He is portrayed as accepting the assumption that deaf muteness results from the tying of the tongue by Satan (Matt. 9:32, 33; 12:22, Luke 11:14). A spirit of infirmity was said by Jesus to result from Satan's binding (Luke 13:11, 16). He seems to have accepted the Davidic authorship of the Psalms (Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42), an attitude and concept quickly dismissed in the circles of biblical scholarship today. Jesus also seems to have accepted the theory of Mosaic authorship of the Torah (Mark 7:10; 10:3; Luke 5:14).
Yet in the Torah there are two creation stories that vary in detail and contradict each other in order (Gen. 1:1 2:4 and Gen. 2:5fo. These stories cannot be harmonized. Poor Moses contradicted himself radically in the first two chapters of the Torah. He also seemed not to know the nationality of the people to whom Joseph's brothers sold Joseph, who took him down to Egypt. In one version it was the Ishmaelites (Gen. 37:25), and in another version it was the Midianites (Gen. 37:28). They are not the same. Moses, as a single author, seems to have been quite confused.
If this were not enough, there are three separate and distinct versions of the Ten Commandments in the Torah that cannot be reconciled (Exodus 20, Exodus 34, and Deuteronomy 5). God was portrayed, if one seeks to maintain a literalism about Holy Scripture, as terribly inept. He (and it was he) could not even get the essence of the divine law clear. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, God was portrayed as not knowing what was going on in those two cities, so he had to send divine messengers to bring him a report. This is hardly a portrait of divine omniscience.
If one doesn't read the Bible constantly, these issues can be ignored lost in ignorance.”

The Bible is an extremely unreliable source to use when it comes to freedom, moral and authority. Tales of atrocities and horror written by people steeped in the superstition they portray in the Bible are very poor guides to a better life. Mankind was slowly able to wrestle out of the stranglehold of Christendom by enlightenment and science, while fighting against a Church that wanted to kill all knowledge. Democracy, freedom and the way of life we enjoy today was opposed every inch by Christians and it still is in many parts of the world.

Norm.

12

Reading Obituaries

by Norm in

jw
friends

in a norwegian local newspaper, a reader is being quite pissed off because some jehovah's witnesses accidentally showed up at her door just after her husband died.. apparently she is aware of such coincidences occurring before in the district to the extent that she dont think it is a coincidence at all.

of course the local jehovah's witness spokesman denies any such organized effort on the part of jehovah's witnesses.

they do not read obituaries to collect names, he claims.. so what do you have to say folks?

Norm

Thanks Java and Riz,

After having neglected my web page for many years I am now working on a little "face lift" for it and at least try to repear the boken links and such. I will probably also put out some new material on it in time.

Norm

12

Reading Obituaries

by Norm in

jw
friends

in a norwegian local newspaper, a reader is being quite pissed off because some jehovah's witnesses accidentally showed up at her door just after her husband died.. apparently she is aware of such coincidences occurring before in the district to the extent that she dont think it is a coincidence at all.

of course the local jehovah's witness spokesman denies any such organized effort on the part of jehovah's witnesses.

they do not read obituaries to collect names, he claims.. so what do you have to say folks?

Norm

In a Norwegian local newspaper, a reader is being quite pissed off because some Jehovah's Witnesses “accidentally” showed up at her door just after her husband died.

Apparently she is aware of such “coincidences” occurring before in the district to the extent that she don’t think it is a coincidence at all. Of course the local Jehovah's Witness “spokesman” denies any such “organized” effort on the part of Jehovah's Witnesses. They do not read Obituaries to collect names, he claims.

So what do you have to say folks? I know there is a vast knowledge about Jehovah's Witness life out there. Here is what the Watchtower CD Rom has to say about it:

*** w67 6/1 345 Letters-Not Outdated ***
The minister soon found that, since she had made the original call, he had received a letter from a Witness who obtained his name and address from the obituary column in the newspaper. Though the man was a stranger to her, she had written a kind letter explaining the Bible’s glorious hope of a resurrection. The man concluded that surely he ought to look into an organization that would take the time to go from door to door and to write letters of comfort to people
*** w56 11/15 688 Preaching by Writing Letters ***
At one of the Society’s Bethel homes a brother, close to eighty years old, unable to climb stairs because of heart trouble, sends letters of comfort together with literature to those whose addresses appear in the obituary column because of having lost a loved one.

*** km 1/70 8 Presenting the Good News-By Letter ***
3 Many in the congregation know that this sister has had good success in witnessing by mail. So they give her names and addresses of individuals to whom they would like her to write. She writes to individuals that she and other publishers have met in the hospital. One brother met a businessman who lived in another part of the country. This man showed interest in the truth. So the brother gave his name and address to this sister, who continued to develop the interest by mail. Some names she gets from the obituary column.

*** yb71 248 Country Reports (Part Two) ***
Can elderly people participate in the ministry? Consider this example: A sister who is eighty-eight years of age could no longer go from house to house and manifested concern about how to share regularly in the service. It was suggested that she use the obituary column in the newspaper and write letters to bereaved families. This she did.

Some times one wonders if it is at all possible for Watchtower “spokesmen” to open their mouth without uttering a lie. But of course, that’s the only way to keep the “truth” true, by lying through your teeth. After all the “truth” is worth lying for, isn’t it?

As some of you know the Watchtower Society has even made a special brochure to recruit grieving people which can be preyed upon at their most vulnerable moments.
What better time to introduce them to the sick realms of la-la land, with the Watchtower brand of insane superstition.

*** km 7/96 4 Imitate Jehovah by Genuinely Caring for Others ***
4 Here is an approach that might be used in offering the brochure “When Someone You Love Dies.” Show its cover and say:
“Today we are sharing this brochure that has brought comfort and hope to millions of people who have lost loved ones in death. Have you ever wondered what hope there is for the dead? [Allow for response.] The Bible clearly states God’s promise of a resurrection.” Read John 5:28, 29. Open the brochure and comment on the points made in the last paragraph on page 28 and the first paragraph on page 31. Show the accompanying illustrations. Offer the brochure. You can prepare the way for a return visit by asking, “How can we be sure that eventually death will be completely eliminated?”
5 Where you placed the brochure “When Someone You Love Dies,” you may want to use this presentation on the return visit:
“When we spoke before, we discussed the wonderful hope of a resurrection. The brochure I left you explains why we can be sure that eventually death will be completely eliminated. Did you not find God’s promises comforting and reassuring?” Allow for response. Then turn to page 31 in the brochure, and read the second and third paragraphs, along with Revelation 21:1-4. Highlight the prospect we have of enjoying life without ever dying. Depending on the interest shown and the circumstances at the moment, you may offer a Bible study in the Knowledge book or ask another question to open the way for the next return visit.

As you can see it doesn’t seem to be such an unknown phenomenon as the Watchtower “spokesman” will have the public believe. What is your take?

Norm.

7

Prohibition, a Satanic plot

by Norm in

jw
friends

da judge j. f. rutherford had some rather bizarre ideas regarding many things, it is however quite rare to come across anything quite so strange as his opinion of the prohibition in the us in the twenties.

rutherford loved his booze and didnt take kindly to the prohibition.

in an article with the title prohibition published in the november 1, 1924 issue of the watchtower he really let it rip and showed his power of reason in full flight.

Norm

Here is the whole Prohibition article:

"The Watchtower,
November 1, 1924

Prohibition
Since the time of Abel there have been some good men who desire to eliminate evil from the earth. Various methods have been employed to this end and all without success. The Jews tried the method of keeping the Law, and were not able to keep either the spirit or the letter thereof. Some have tried to make themselves righteous, but have learned that such is impossible. Others have been trying to eliminate evil by legislation. This method also has failed. God is not limited in power. He could destroy evil at any time. He has permitted it for some good reason. The fact that he has permitted it and has not destroyed it is a sufficient reason for Christians not to attempt to run ahead of the Lord in its elimination. One of the reasons, which seems apparent, is to give all intelligent creatures a full opportunity to acknowledge, accept, and serve Jehovah as God or to follow the way of the devil; in other words to give an opportunity to prove man’s loyalty to his Creator. God has permitted man to have experience with evil, that he might learn lasting lessons; and when the time comes for God to establish righteousness in the earth, those who learn the lessons as he has arranged them will become righteous.

The great Creator has made man a free moral agent, placed good and evil before him, and given him the choice of selecting one and rejecting the other. The real issue before man is God or the devil. God has a
well-defined plan concerning man, which plan will successfully eliminate all evil from the earth. Every part of the divine plan Satan, the mimic god, has tried to copy. The devil's counterfeit plan has been for the purpose of deceiving mankind, making God appear a liar, and his Word untrustworthy. Up to this time Satan has succeeded well in blinding the people. We have now come to a crisis in the affairs of man. Legally the devil's dominion is at an end. The rightful King, the beloved Son of God, is here and has taken his sovereign power. Satan desires to hold the people in subjection to himself. Hence it must be expected that he will resort to every possible means of fraud and deceit to accomplish his end.

Duty of the Christian is Plain
What is the duty of each Christian under the circumstances? We answer: His duty is plain. Having entered into a covenant with God by sacrifice through the merit of Christ Jesus, and having been begotten to the divine nature, he has solemnly agreed to do the will of God. Any other course willingly taken would be disloyalty to God, and therefore a repudiation of his covenant. There is no possible ground of compromise for the Christian. To be a Christian one must be on the Lord’s side; and when he willingly ceases to be on the Lord’s side, he ceases to be a Christian. Surely every true Christian will agree that these statements are sound and true.

Recently the President of our Association, responding to a question concerning the Eighteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which prohibits the manufacture, sale and transportation of intoxicating liquor within the United States and which is known as the prohibition law, said: "Prohibition is a scheme of the devil," referring of course to the law above mentioned.
Some of the brethren have made strenuous protests against this statement. Because of the seeming
misunderstanding we deem it proper for The Watch Tower to state the Scriptural view of the matter.
In the outset it must be conceded by all fair-minded people the prohibition is either the result of God's will being done on earth or else a scheme of the devil. Let each one judge which it is in the light of the undisputed facts.

A desire to eliminate intoxicating liquor and all other evils is a proper and laudable desire. All Christians
should be in accord with that desire. But how to accomplish that end is a different thing. The devil has a
way of appearing to accomplish it, and his way is that of fraud and deceit.
God's way of accomplishing that end if righteous and complete. In his own due time he will completely
eliminate intoxicating liquors and all other evil influences. He has said to man: "For as the heavens are
higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." -- Isaiah 55:9.

God's way is not popular with the majority of mankind at present. All true Christians are for God's way. He who seeks the approval of the world and who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God. (Jas. 4:4) The Lord’s friendship and his approval are the only things worthwhile. Intoxicating liquor is a great evil. The devil stands for all things evil. He is the very personification of wickedness.
Then how could prohibition of intoxicating liquor be the devil’s scheme? St. Paul answers: "For Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness." (2 Cor. 11:14,15) In the prohibition scheme he appears as an angel of light; his ministers likewise. Fraud and deceit are Satan's principal methods of operation. He is the god of this evil world, and has long deceived the nations and blinded their minds to the truth of God's plan. -- 1 Cor. 4:4.

Satan Beguiles Ruling Factors
More than a century ago good men and women, seeing the evil of intoxicating liquor, started a movement to expel it from the earth. In America they organized the Prohibition Party. That party is now dead, and had nothing to do with the enactment of the Eighteenth Amendment. But even had that party succeeded in its plan, such would not have been God's way. Long ago Satan caused the union of church and state in
Europe, and therefore the downfall of the clergy. He desired to accomplish the same thing in America. Union of church and state is repugnant to the fundamental American principles. To accomplish his end Satan knew that he must resort to fraud and deceit by putting forth something that had the appearance of good. The World War furnished the opportunity for him to act, and he did act.

Jesus taught his followers to pray: "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," and also taught them to wait for his second coming for the setting up of that kingdom and the establishment of righteousness. Satan induced the clergy to believe that they could set up God's kingdom on earth without waiting for the Lord, and that to accomplish this they must bring into the church men of wealth, influence and power. The clergy fell under this temptation, brought in the profiteers, politicians and other men of influence, and made them the chief ones in their congregations. The ruling factors have long been under the influence of Satan, whether they knew it or not. The chief ones amongst the rulers are those of commercial power. It is a well-known fact in America that this power has nominated the candidates for the leading parties for several years, and has elected the one they desired. Next, the commercial powers were induced to see that if liquor could be taken away from the laboring man the result would be beneficial to bankers, manufacturers and merchants. Big business, the real controlling power of the politicians of the land under the supermind of their guiding and invisible god (Satan), set about to unite the forces of the Democratic and Republican parties to accomplish their purpose. It was an easy matter to get the preachers to do the shouting and to make the noise, because they felt that now big business and big politicians were with them and that they could set up the Lord’s kingdom in earth.

The World War furnished the opportunity, and an appeal was made to the people by the politicians and the preachers to patriotically support the movement for prohibition in order to win the war, and thus many were induced to support it. The appeal was made to the order-loving ones by the preachers that it was the will of God that prohibition should be enacted; and the people were again deceived, and acted accordingly. By the combined action of big business, big politicians, and big preachers they induced
the Congress to take the necessary steps to amend the Constitution, and the state legislatures to ratify it. At the time, the New York _Tribune_ editorially said: "This legislation seems to be propelled by some invisible force." It was indeed an invisible force, and that force was the devil. The result was a union of clergy with big business and big politicians in a combination to control the American people. Can any Christian, who believes God and his Word, for one moment think that the Lord God of righteousness
used the Democratic and Republican parties, and the higher critics and evolutionists, and those who deny the blood of Christ Jesus, to enact the prohibition law; and that such was his will and plan? Does the God of righteousness need any such unholy alliance, as this to accomplish his will on earth? Does any Christian believe that this is the plan of God? If not, then whose scheme is it?

God's Word Gives Wholesome Advice It is well known that the ultra-rich, the politicians, and
even many clergy are supplied with all the intoxicating liquor they can consume, while they are making the greatest noise for the enforcement of the prohibition law. As an illustration: One influential clergyman, who led the fight in his vicinity for prohibition, shortly after the enactment of the law had his house burglarized. The burglars found his cellar stocked with liquors, and indulged in same so freely that they broke up his furniture. The clergyman refused to prosecute the guilty ones because it would expose the fact that he, an advocate of prohibition, had stocked up well in advance, that he might to need to deny himself things that he was willing to take away from his neighbors merely for show.

It is also well known that many of the agencies employed to enforce the prohibition law have taken the illicit liquor away from the bootlegger and either used it themselves or sold it to others. Many of the prohibition law officers have connived with others to steal great quantities of liquor from warehouses, and have then wrongfully sold it to others or divided it amongst those particularly favored by them. Can any Christian for a moment believe that prohibition, as we now see it, is the result of God’s will done on earth? Intoxicating liquor is a great evil, and the saloons a curse to humanity. The good American people do not want either. They are also sick and disgusted with pious-faced frauds, who parade in the name of Christ, hypocritically claiming to representing God and righteousness, who join hands with the conscienceless politicians and profiteers to enact and enforce a law, and claim it to be the carrying out of God's will. When Jesus was on earth he denounced above everything else fraud and hypocrisy. God's Word admonishes Christians to abstain from every form of evil. Fraud and hypocrisy are amongst the greatest evils. Let the people adopt the Lord's way, accept Christ and his kingdom, and be submissive thereto; and their ways will be right. But so long as the people adopt Satan’s fraudulent methods and ignore the Lord's way they can not accomplish a lasting good. All Christians should refuse to stultify themselves by joining hands with any scheme that has the appearance of good when in truth
and in fact it is honeycombed with fraud and deceit, and denies the Lord and his methods of accomplishing the blessing of mankind. No Christian advocates the use of intoxicating liquor.

The question is not concerning the existence of the evil, but the *method* of elimination of that evil. Instead of running ahead of the Lord and joining hands with some scheme that is contrary to the Lord's way, the Christian should remember the scripture: "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts; for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience." -- James 5:7,8,10.

Reformation Impossible by Legislation
The Lord Jesus is now present. His kingdom is at hand. Satan, in his desperation to deceive the people, has appeared as an angel of light and has put forth a thing, to wit, prohibition, which appears to be good but which in truth and in fact is a fraudulent scheme to turn the minds of the people away from Christ and his kingdom. God, in his own due time, will eliminate intoxicating liquor and all other evils from the earth; and when he does so, there will be no apostate preachers ("Ministers of Satan appearing as ministers of righteousness"), no politicians and no profiteers advocating prohibition that their own
selfish ends may be accomplished. There will be no fraudulent agencies claiming to enforce the law, and at the same time violating it. Shortly Satan will be aborn of his power. (Rev. 20:1-4) The eyes of the people will be opened to the truth. The Lord will rule them in righteousness. He will have no dishonest agencies representing him; but, as he says, "when thy judgments [the Lord's] are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." -- Isa. 26:9. Experience shows that it is impossible to reform men of evil merely by legislation. This does not mean that men should not be reformed, but when the great Jehovah God has plainly told us in his Word how these reformations will be brought about, every Christian should adopt the Lord’s way because it is right and every Christian should refrain from the devil's way because it is wrong. -- 2 Cor. 6:15-18.

The Christian would be more popular with the world to advocate the present scheme of prohibition. It is better to be right than to be popular. The Christian's allegiance must be to God and his kingdom. Remember the issue now is, The Lord's kingdom against Satan's rule. If we are followers of the Lord, then let us hear and obey his Word: "Wait yet upon me, saith the Lord...For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one
consent." -- Zeph. 3:8,9. The Lord could prohibit intoxicating liquors at any time, but it is not yet his due time. It follows, then, that the scheme put forth at this particular time in the light of the evidence is not God's plan or scheme but that of the devil. In God's due time his kingdom will rule the nations and enforce righteousness. He will so reform the hearts of men that they will refrain from evil. For a
Christian to be loyal to the Lord he must now stand for the Lord's way, and not for any other.
With the kindliest feeling toward all who desire the elimination of every form of evil from the earth, as
Christians we must follow the Lord's way and wait upon him. The evidences are so conclusive at this time that his kingdom is at hand that there can be no doubt in the mind of one who is really informed on the Bible. Let each believer in the Bible then ask himself: Has God brought about the present condition of prohibition? If not, then should I advocate it? Is God going to reform through Christ’s kingdom the world and eliminate evil and bring blessings to the people? If so, then I must be on the Lord’s side.
The Watch Tower has nothing to do with politics. Prohibition is not a political question. If the people of the world wish to make a prohibition law and enforce that law, well and good. That is not our affair. A Christian can not consistently participate therein. He must keep himself separate from the world. The sole question is, Who is on the Lord's side? If we are on the Lord's side, our way is clear: Be patient and wait upon him to fully establish his rule in the earth."

Thats it.

Norm

5

For Hillary_Step: Passive vs Active

by COMF in

jw
friends

hello, step.

as the original thread has taken on a life of its own, i'm moving our discussion to a separate one.. so you first accuse me of being someone i am not.

note that there is no question mark after your statement.. comf: "you're 'friend', aren't you.".

Norm

Hi Comf,

Only want to say that I fully agree with your observations so far.

Norm.

7

Prohibition, a Satanic plot

by Norm in

jw
friends

da judge j. f. rutherford had some rather bizarre ideas regarding many things, it is however quite rare to come across anything quite so strange as his opinion of the prohibition in the us in the twenties.

rutherford loved his booze and didnt take kindly to the prohibition.

in an article with the title prohibition published in the november 1, 1924 issue of the watchtower he really let it rip and showed his power of reason in full flight.

Norm

”Da Judge” J. F. Rutherford had some rather bizarre ideas regarding many things, it is however quite rare to come across anything quite so strange as his opinion of the “prohibition” in the US in the twenties.

Rutherford loved his “booze” and didn’t take kindly to the prohibition. In an article with the title “Prohibition” published in the November 1, 1924 issue of The Watchtower he really let it rip and showed his “power of reason” in full flight. First he draws up the great battle between God and Satan where the latter is employing every trick in the book to seduce man:

God has a well-defined plan concerning man, which plan will successfully eliminate all evil from the earth. Every part of the divine plan Satan, the mimic god, has tried to copy. The devil's counterfeit plan has been for the purpose of deceiving mankind, making God appear a liar, and his Word untrustworthy. Up to this time Satan has succeeded well in blinding the people. We have now come to a crisis in the affairs of man. Legally the devil's dominion is at an end. The rightful King, the beloved Son of God, is here and has taken his sovereign power. Satan desires to hold the people in subjection to himself. Hence it must be expected that he will resort to every possible means of fraud and deceit to accomplish his end.

So far it is all familiar Rutherford/Watchtower material and he continues with the admonition that it is the duty of every each Christian to be loyal to God. But what has this got to do with the prohibition, you might ask? Well, read this:

Recently the President of our Association, responding to a question concerning the Eighteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which prohibits the manufacture, sale and transportation of intoxicating liquor within the United States and which is known as the prohibition law, said: "Prohibition is a scheme of the devil," referring of course to the law above mentioned. Some of the brethren have made strenuous protests against this statement. Because of the seeming misunderstanding we deem it proper for The Watch Tower to state the Scriptural view of the matter. In the outset it must be conceded by all fair-minded people the prohibition is either the result of God's will being done on earth or else a scheme of the devil. Let each one judge which it is in the light of the undisputed facts.

Apparently Rutherford had really stepped in it when he had made the public statement to someone: "Prohibition is a scheme of the devil" and so it became necessary for him to make this “clarification” in the Watchtower magazine. Notice that the Watchtower use the phrase “undisputed facts”, which is always a tell tale sign that the Watchtower have absolutely nothing to show for their claim but will have to dazzle the reader with and avalanche of bilge and circular reasoning. Of course even Rutherford realized that what he had said was pure drivel, but he was always willing to produce more drivel so let us have a closer look:

A desire to eliminate intoxicating liquor and all other evils is a proper and laudable desire. All Christians should be in accord with that desire. But how to accomplish that end is a different thing. The devil has a way of appearing to accomplish it, and his way is that of fraud and deceit. God's way of accomplishing that end if righteous and complete. In his own due time he will completely eliminate intoxicating liquors and all other evil influences. He has said to man: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." -- Isaiah 55:9.

Somehow Rutherford “knew” that the prohibition was not “God’s way” of doing things in spite of God’s thought being supposedly “higher” than his. Then follows some of the most exquisite “Rutherfordian” rubbish imaginable:

God's way is not popular with the majority of mankind at present. All true Christians are for God's way. He who seeks the approval of the world and who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God. (Jas. 4:4) The Lord’s friendship and his approval are the only things worthwhile. Intoxicating liquor is a great evil. The devil stands for all things evil. He is the very personification of wickedness.
Then how could prohibition of intoxicating liquor be the devil’s scheme? St. Paul answers: "For Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness." (2 Cor. 11:14,15) In the prohibition scheme he appears as an angel of light; his ministers likewise. Fraud and deceit are Satan's principal methods of operation. He is the god of this evil world, and has long deceived the nations and blinded their minds to the truth of God's plan. -- 1 Cor. 4:4.

Aren’t you all stunned and dazzled by Da Judges razor sharp reasoning here? Make a lot of sense, eh? But there is more:

The ruling factors have long been under the influence of Satan, whether they knew it or not. The chief ones amongst the rulers are those of commercial power. It is a well-known fact in America that this power has nominated the candidates for the leading parties for several years, and has elected the one they desired. Next, the commercial powers were induced to see that if liquor could be taken away from the laboring man the result would be beneficial to bankers, manufacturers and merchants. Big business, the real controlling power of the politicians of the land under the supermind of their guiding and invisible god (Satan), set about to unite the forces of the Democratic and Republican parties to accomplish their purpose. It was an easy matter to get the preachers to do the shouting and to make the noise, because they felt that now big business and big politicians were with them and that they could set up the Lord’s kingdom in earth.

As we can see, the “indisputable facts” show that all of Satan’s minions was behind the Prohibition, only Rutherford could see through it all:

At the time, the New York _Tribune_ editorially said: "This legislation seems to be propelled by some invisible force." It was indeed an invisible force, and that force was the devil. The result was a union of clergy with big business and big politicians in a combination to control the American people. Can any Christian, who believes God and his Word, for one moment think that the Lord God of righteousness
used the Democratic and Republican parties, and the higher critics and evolutionists, and those who deny the blood of Christ Jesus, to enact the prohibition law; and that such was his will and plan? Does the God of righteousness need any such unholy alliance, as this to accomplish his will on earth? Does any Christian believe that this is the plan of God? If not, then whose scheme is it?

Apart from Rutherford’s tendency to see Satan behind all and everything he made some very good and no doubt correct observations and comments:

God's Word Gives Wholesome Advice It is well known that the ultra-rich, the politicians, and even many clergy are supplied with all the intoxicating liquor they can consume, while they are making the greatest noise for the enforcement of the prohibition law. As an illustration: One influential clergyman, who led the fight in his vicinity for prohibition, shortly after the enactment of the law had his house burglarized. The burglars found his cellar stocked with liquors, and indulged in same so freely that they broke up his furniture. The clergyman refused to prosecute the guilty ones because it would expose the fact that he, an advocate of prohibition, had stocked up well in advance, that he might to need to deny himself things that he was willing to take away from his neighbors merely for show.

It is also well known that many of the agencies employed to enforce the prohibition law have taken the illicit liquor away from the bootlegger and either used it themselves or sold it to others. Many of the prohibition law officers have connived with others to steal great quantities of liquor from warehouses, and have then wrongfully sold it to others or divided it amongst those particularly favored by them.

Since the prohibition was a Satanic plot Rutherford as a “True Christian” had no obligation to respect it and he certainly didn’t. In a public letter to Rutherford, dated April 1. 1937, written by the former Canadian branch overseer W. Salter, Salter reveal how he had to smuggle big quantities of alcohol for Rutherford’s personal use during prohibition:

It was with this thought in mind that I, at ﷓your orders would purchase cases of whiskey at $60.00 a case, and cases of brandy and other liquors, to say nothing of untold cases of beer. A bottle or two of liquor would not do; it was for THE PRESIDENT and nothing was too, good for THE PRESIDENT.
Salter’s letter

Salter also made some rather amusing and sarcastic statement about Rutherford going from drink to drink”. No doubt a very apt description of Rutherford’s obvious problems with alcohol. Reading some of Rutherford’s books I have often wondered if he was quite sober when he wrote some of his material and according to Salter my suspicions has been correct:

You see, Lord we have our YEAR BOOK to study now and that tells of our wonderful works, and our PRESIDENT too, is very busy writing books. And oh Lord, he Is so courageous and his faith in Thee so great that he gets behind four walls, or surrounds himself literally with an armed bodyguard, and bellows away his dreams (Jeremiah 23,31,82) and sends us out from door to door to face the enemy while he goes from 'drink to drink,' and tells us if we don't we are going to be destroyed. Salter’s letter.

Of course by writing this article Rutherford was going far beyond the political “neutrality” the Watchtower love to brag about. How did he solve the obvious problem of him meddling in politics and commenting upon political decisions and issues? Very simple folks, as the president of the Watchtower Society he could redefine reality to fit his slightest whim, as the Watchtower Society have done to this day. Look at this fantastic reasoning:

The Watch Tower has nothing to do with politics. Prohibition is not a political question.

When you are the president in a huge printing empire with dictatorial power you can get away with such blatant nonsense. They still do it in Brooklyn.

Norm.

PS. If you want to read the whole article I can post it here.

19

Indisputable/physical facts

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the bizarre world that exist within the watchtower society headquarters in brooklyn you can find all kinds of strange statements.

particularly funny is the use of the expressions indisputable/physical facts.

according to the watchtower from 1922, indisputable facts showed that jesus second presence began in 1874!

Norm

Hi jst2laws,

You said:

A side discovery, I often do WT library searches on words or phrases looking for usable quotes. The result is often several identical quotes, even identical paragraphs, separated sometimes by decades. I wonder what would be found if the CD library went back to 1879? Thanks for the research.

Thank you, your welcome, you can find more research on: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm
We are many who have discovered that Brooklyn is using the cut and paste technique extensively. They recycle old articles with a little touch up to make the seem "current". Some "food", eh?

Norm.

8

Sheep - why do people keep them?

by Norm in

jw
friends

the bible story of the lost sheep is something we have heard from childhood and it is usually told in the context of the great love shown by the good shepherd, we find it in luke:.

*** rbi8 luke 15:4-6 ***.

what man of you with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it?

Norm

The Bible story of the “lost sheep” is something we have heard from childhood and it is usually told in the context of the great love shown by the “good shepherd”, we find it in Luke:

*** Rbi8 Luke 15:4-6 ***
“What man of YOU with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it he puts it upon his shoulders and rejoices. 6 And when he gets home he calls his friends and his neighbors together, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost.

Like so many other stories from the Bible, which is mindlessly repeated over thousands of years it doesn’t make much sense when you sit down and think about it for a bit. An author has commented that if the point were to illustrate love and that the shepherd cared about the lost animal, a dog would have been a far better example.

After all people keep sheep to use their wool, slaughter and eat them. So recovering a lost sheep would of course not be any sign of love for the sheep, it would simply be recovering lost property. It is of course highly unlikely that they kept sheep as pets in ancient Israel. The same lost sheep would sooner or later end up on the dinner table.

Taking this a step further and looking at it in the context of another biblical phrase, “wolf among the sheep”, it didn’t seem to matter much from the viewpoint of the sheep. The likelihood of survival was zero, with both the wolf and the shepherd.

Norm.