Norm

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  3

  Freedom of religion

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the january 8.

  magazine discuss this theme.

  looking through it (the norwegian issue) it really amazes me that the average jehovah's witness can actually read this and not notice the glaring inconstancy.

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  Norm

  Hi Celia,

  You find most of them here:

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

  Norm
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  3

  "Persecution"

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  looking over some of my old papers i came across this quite amusing article from the awake magazine.

  the awake!

  starts up its lament with a text from the bible: .

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  Norm

  Looking over some of my old papers I came across this quite amusing article from the Awake” magazine. I read the article with interest as I have personally been involved in the child custody cases mentioned from Norway. The Awake! starts up it’s lament with a text from the Bible:

  *** g92 9/22 11 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  Jehovah’s Witnesses ‘Delivered Up to Local Courts’
  CHRISTIANITY has met with opposition from its inception. In giving instructions to his disciples, Jesus warned: “Be on your guard against men; for they will deliver you up to local courts, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. Why, you will be haled before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations.” (Matthew 10:17, 18) In most countries today, opposition to the Kingdom takes a more subtle approach than the murderous wave of persecution that broke out shortly after the execution of Jesus. In the complex world in which we live, the issues raised by opponents extend beyond the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom.

  Like any other Human rights violator the Watchtower Society doesn’t like being haled before the courts. The fact that they are not in court because they are merely “Christian” doesn’t seem to worry then much, why confuse the issue with facts?

  *** g92 9/22 11 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  Child-Custody Matters
  One court to which some of Jehovah’s Witnesses have increasingly been delivered is the family court. In Austria, Belgium, Canada, France, Norway, the United States, and other countries, a small group of opposers have tried to make religion the key issue in determining child-custody issues when faithful Witnesses of Jehovah are divorced by unbelieving mates. Just because they were Jehovah’s Witnesses, Witness parents have lost custody of their children.

  I am very proud (something that I extremely rarely is) to be one of the “opposers” mentioned in this Awake!

  *** g92 9/22 11 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  Child-Custody Matters
  One Witness lost custody of her three-year-old son and was restricted from even mentioning religion during periods of visitation. The Legal Department of the Watchtower Society appealed this order and lost in the court of appeals. An appeal was then taken to the Ohio State Supreme Court. Happily, on April 15, 1992, the court ruled in favor of the liberty of the Witness. The 11-page opinion struck quite a blow to the so-called expert witness, who is actually a disfellowshipped individual claiming to be a psychologist. The court said that he “testified, on the basis of a dissertation he had written, that mental illness was more common among Jehovah’s Witnesses than among the general population. This testimony was a blatant attempt to stereotype an entire religion. . . . [T]his one piece of statistical evidence is meaningless.”

  The reference above to a “disfellowshipped individual claiming to be a psychologist” was a kick to Jerry Bergman. The courts are naturally quite shocked when they realize how bad the Watchtower religion is for children. In my experience the courts are quick to realize this when it is explained properly to them. The Watchtower literature provides all the necessary documentation for all the insanity the Witness child gets subjected to. The lower courts in Norway have made several similar rulings regarding restrictions on the Witness parents trying to indoctrinate the child during visitation. This is of course done because it doesn’t take any sane person long to realize how harmful it is.
  But when such cases some before the higher courts, and they always do because the Watchtower Society is forever appealing, the principles of religious freedom enters more into the picture. And there is no doubt that under the cover of Freedom of Religion the various religious denominations are perfectly free to violate other laws, like Human Rights, etc. As shown clearly in the next quote:

  *** g92 9/22 11 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  The court has ordered a new trial, saying: “[C]ustody may not be denied to a parent solely because she will not encourage her child to salute the flag, celebrate holidays, or participate in extracurricular activities. We reverse the trial court’s custody and visitation orders because these decisions were improperly based on [the parent’s] religious beliefs.” As a result, this mother enjoyed attending the Memorial of Christ’s death on April 17 with her son at her side in the Kingdom Hall.

  In the KH children will learn that non Jehovah's Witnesses are scum, including it’s “infidel” father or mother, that they will be wiped out by Jehovah very soon. They can be taught to hate the non-Jehovah's Witness parent because of this; in short they can be manipulated in every possible way and they usually are. This can be done while the Watchtower Society scream about persecution and oppression.

  *** g92 9/22 11-12 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  The Legal Department of the Canada branch office of the Watch Tower Society has two cases now pending before the Supreme Court of Canada on this same issue. The Austria branch has been involved in a stunning victory in a case before the European Commission of Human Rights. Additionally, Belgium, France, and Norway have reported recent trial-court victories for beleaguered Witnesses in other child-custody cases where religion was the focal point of the attack. In each instance, as Jesus said, it has turned out for a witness not only to the court and the lawyers but to the nations through the publicity generated by the news media.

  It is quite amusing to read about this “stunning victory” in Austria. I am familiar with the case, it is known as the “Hoffman” case. The Austrian supreme court was extremely courageous and actually said out loud that the Watchtower religion made Jehovah's Witnesses unsuited as parents. The European commission did however NOT change the verdict of the Austrian supreme court which had given the non Witness the custody, something which the Awake! completely “forget” to tell it’s readers. So let’s hope that the Watchtower Society will have many such “victories” in the future. In Norway there was a similar case where the non Witness parent was awarded custody clearly based on the dysfunctional religion of the Witness parent. The Lower court wrote a decision which clearly stated this. All the Supreme Court in reality said was that this was something that had to be tried in all individual cases, that being a Jehovah's Witnesses should not automatically exclude one as a parent, something I of course agree fully with. But the Supreme Court didn’t alter the fact that the non Witness parent had got custody.

  As we know, Freedom of Religion also grants parents the right to kill their children, although indirectly. Jehovah's Witnesses and their children have the RIGHT to refuse the use of blood, they of course have NO RIGHT to choose otherwise because then they will be hit with severe sanctions:
  
  

  *** g92 9/22 12 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  Blood Issue
  Another matter that Witnesses are being confronted with is the blood issue. Despite recent victories for the religious liberty and personal autonomy of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Supreme Courts of Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, and New York and despite the tireless efforts of Hospital Information Services and the many hospital liaison committees of Jehovah’s Witnesses throughout the country, this issue keeps raising its ugly head. However, health-care providers are getting a witness, and some hospitals are trying to identify quickly and clearly patients who are Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  *** g92 9/22 12 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  A lawsuit on behalf of a 16-year-old and his mother in federal court in Atlanta is nearing trial. The young boy was tied up and transfused for eight hours. The hearing to obtain a court order authorizing this conduct was held in the hospital and obtained without notice to the boy or his mother. There are numerous other cases pending in appeals courts and new ones arising daily. Battles are being won, but the struggle for human rights is not over. Jehovah’s Witnesses look to Jehovah God to vindicate his law on this issue, in his own due time.

  As we can see if the Awake! version here is indeed true, some health care people get a bit heavy handed some times too, but unlike the Watchtower Society they are probably concerned with saving lives, while the Watchtower Society is more concerned with their own power over people, and when you can get people to die over your sick rules, that must be the ultimate power trip, the closest a human being can get to play God. Of course it is always such a comfort to the faithful Jehovah's Witness reader when they write little coded messages like the one above:

  “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES LOOK TO JEHOVAH GOD TO VINDICATE HIS LAW ON THIS ISSUE, IN HIS OWN DUE TIME.”

  This would be quite innocent to the non Witness reader but to a Jehovah's Witness it is another assurance about the imminent slaughter when Jehovah will kill all those non Jehovah's Witness bastards.

  *** g92 9/22 13 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  Jehovah told the nation of Israel that they would not conquer the Promised Land all at once but that it would be accomplished “little by little.” (Deuteronomy 7:22) The advancement of the rights of Jehovah’s modern people is rather similar; little by little they make progress. But win or lose, it is certain that whenever Jehovah’s people are haled before governors, kings, courts, or anyone at all, it turns out as a witness for them and the nations.

  Yes, they are indeed “haled” before the courts, and rightly so for their criminal behavior, not because they are Christians.

  *** g92 9/22 13 Jehovah's Witnesses 'Delivered Up to Local Courts' ***
  In the near future Jehovah will completely vindicate himself not only on issues involving blood and custody but also on the legal issue involving his sovereignty. Then his people will experience peace from all opposers and enjoy exquisite delight under Kingdom rule—because Jehovah is a lover of justice.—Psalm 37:28.

  Again we get that little assurance from Brooklyn about the horrible “fate” that awaits those who dare interfere with the Brooklyn based world wide con operation. And it will of course all happen “IN THE NEAR FUTURE!”

  Norm
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  Jason BeDuhn's work out when?

  by TheOldHippie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anybody know when jason beduhn's comparing work of bible translations is due to be released?

  i think it is to entitled "war of bibles" or something like that.

  (and much to the regret of quite afew, the nwt will score among the best-ranking translations ....)

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  Norm

  And what if anything would that prove to anyone?

  Norm
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  3

  Freedom of religion

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the january 8.

  magazine discuss this theme.

  looking through it (the norwegian issue) it really amazes me that the average jehovah's witness can actually read this and not notice the glaring inconstancy.

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  Norm

  The January 8. 1999, issue of the Awake! magazine discuss this theme. Looking through it (the Norwegian issue) it really amazes me that the average Jehovah's Witness can actually read this and not notice the glaring inconstancy. On page 3 there is a big quote of article 18 in the Declaration of Human Rights:

  “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

  Already by reading this, their alarm clocks should go off. I mean, what happens if a Jehovah's Witness try to exercise his/hers alleged “freedom” to join some other church? Of course we all know the answer to that question. The article makes some remarks about Israel, where someone has suggested a law that bans writings that encourage people to change their religion. The magazine, very correctly state that such a law would be extremely easy to misuse. Very true, but again, what’s the Watchtower Society own attitude towards Jehovah's Witnesses who change religion? Why is it that the Watchtower Society wants exclusive rights in this matter? Everyone should be granted the “right” to convert to be a Jehovah's Witness, but from that day, the right to convert again is gone forever? What kind of reasoning is that?

  The rest of the articles are a long lamentation about “intolerance” scattered with snide remarks about France. The article does of course not bother to mention that France has not lifted a finger to interfere with their religious activities. It is also quite amusing to notice how heavily the Awake rely on “The Beast”. The article is simply festered with quotes from various UN publications. Brooklyn is forever appealing to various nations and groups to respect the rules of “The Beast”. The Watchtower Society is really relying on the protection provided by “The Beast”. On page 11 there is a very interesting subsection, under the heading: “The best way to fight intolerance”. Among other things it says that tolerance includes disagreement, and that people can of course be convinced that other person’s religious beliefs are totally wrong, but as long as such viewpoints are presented correctly, they can’t be said to be intolerant. It is only when people spread lies about other religions that it can be called intolerance. The article also very correctly point out that the ultimate expression of intolerance is when people get killed because of their faith.

  Again it is amazing that people who belong to an organization who in no uncertain terms declare all religions but their own, false, and preach violent slaughter of 6 billion non Witnesses “any day now”, apparently do not consider themselves intolerant! Killing 99,9% of mankind only because they don’t “accept” Brooklyn’s insane calculations about 1914, seem to be a fully legitimate reason for wiping them out. What an illuminating example of the ultimate intolerance?

  But on page 13, it really takes off, as the Awake! starts to talk about, “Rights without obligations”. Wow, if that isn’t interesting, then I don’t know what is. Does it really mean that Brooklyn might one day understand that human rights isn’t just something they demand for their two bit Watchtower organization, but that they should also actually grant these rights to the average Jehovah's Witness as well? Naah, of course not, that would be too much.

  Norm.
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  Silentlambs: Modern-day Folk Hero?

  by Derrick in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  he's the "knight in shining armor" for many young ones across the globe, who were spared from predators moving in for the kill.

  who was instrumental amongst jehovah's witnesses in chasing these monsters off?

  it should have been brothers in the watchtower society.

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  Norm

  Although I agree that superstition has no place in the life of Christians, you are so wrong about "dreams belonging in la la land"!

  Christianity is BASED on superstition Rick. People who believe that women get pregnant without sex and fantasize about angels and demons are extremely superstitious.

  Norm
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  Silentlambs potential for Hollywood film

  by Derrick in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello bill, i have been thinking about one great method to make public awareness of child molestation and rape in the organization to explode like an 80 megaton hydrogen bomb!.

  hollywood studios have an obsession with crime movies that chronicle the lives of the abused, and those like you, bill, who make a major difference in protecting them.. there are two kinds of movie themes, the documentary and "docu-drama.

  " it's the second that is ordinarily used because it's based on real life.

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  Norm

  Norm, are you being facetious or finally willing to admit this film is truly "historically correct"?

  Sigh.I rest my case Rick.

  Norm
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  17

  Silentlambs potential for Hollywood film

  by Derrick in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello bill, i have been thinking about one great method to make public awareness of child molestation and rape in the organization to explode like an 80 megaton hydrogen bomb!.

  hollywood studios have an obsession with crime movies that chronicle the lives of the abused, and those like you, bill, who make a major difference in protecting them.. there are two kinds of movie themes, the documentary and "docu-drama.

  " it's the second that is ordinarily used because it's based on real life.

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  Norm

  Don't you think it should be a "historically correct" film, Rick?
  You know like "Prince of Egypt"?

  Norm
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  8

  The "humble" man Rutherford

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the watchtower society must indeed suffer from a severe lack of humble people.. in their search for an example of humility and humbleness they actually name their second president, j. f. rutherford, a man still known for his complete lack of anything resembling humility.

  hoping for the usual total ignorance among the r&f the watchtower wrote this:.

  *** w93 2/1 19 what godly subjection requires of us ***.

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  Norm

  The Watchtower Society must indeed suffer from a severe lack of humble people.
  In their search for an example of humility and humbleness they actually name their second President, J. F. Rutherford, a man still known for his complete lack of anything resembling humility.

  Hoping for the usual total ignorance among the R&F the Watchtower wrote this:

  *** w93 2/1 19 What Godly Subjection Requires of Us ***
  19 A fine example of humility and godly subjection was once furnished by Joseph Rutherford, the second president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. When Hitler banned the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany, the brothers there wrote to him asking what they should do in view of the ban on their meetings and their preaching activity. He mentioned this to the Bethel family and frankly admitted that he did not know what to tell the German brothers, particularly in view of the severe sanctions involved. He said that if anyone knew what to tell them, he would be glad to hear it. What a humble spirit!

  It is interesting that Rutherford admitted that he didn’t know what to do in Germany, but history show that he didn’t mind very much putting the R&F Witnesses in Germany at great personal risk. His stupid policy did indeed result in a few hundred dead Witnesses. Yeah sure, Rutherford was almost as fine an example of humility as Moses, you know the guy who “wrote” about himself that he was the most humble man on earth. In Rutherford’s defense we can say that the Watchtower Society had to wait a long time before they dared promote him as humble.

  *** w93 12/1 14 Examples of Humility to Imitate ***
  JOSEPH F. RUTHERFORD had a commanding presence, being more than six feet [180 cm] tall and weighing well over 200 pounds [90 kg]. He also had a powerful voice, which he used not only to make known the name of Jehovah as it had never been made known before but also to expose the duplicity of the religious leaders of Christendom, terming their religion “a snare and a racket.” But as powerful as his speeches were, when he prayed with the headquarters Bethel family, he sounded just like a small boy talking to his daddy, thus giving evidence of both his intimate relationship with his Maker and his humility. Yes, he was as humble as a little child.—Matthew 18:3, 4.

  When Rutherford occasionally collapsed in a drunken stupor in the corridors at Bethel it is said that that it took 5-6 brothers to carry him to his rooms, so he must have weighed far more than 90 kg. Not even “Jehovah” could get him to his room’s single-handedly.

  *** w93 12/1 14 Examples of Humility to Imitate ***
  2 Undoubtedly, all true servants of Jehovah God are humble. In this regard they stand in striking contrast with people of the world. Today, more than ever before, it is filled with proud individuals. The high and the mighty, the rich and the learned, and even many of the poor and those disadvantaged in other ways are proud.

  Of course all the Watchtower Society leaders are extremely humble, that evidently goes with the territory. What a “striking contrast” the upper echelons of the Watchtower Society are to their haughty counterparts in the WORLD! I mean aren’t you all very tired of all those proud people out there in the world who think they are somebody?

  We all know that the absolute height of humility and a sure sign of humbleness are to be found among those who are able to tell us who have the favor of God. Those who can tell us who deserve to live and those who deserve to die. Isn’t that extremely humble? The Watchtower Society repeatedly tells us that no one, who do not accept their reality have no right to exist. Isn’t that astonishingly humble?

  Take a look at this extremely humble statement from Brooklyn:

  *** w94 7/1 13 At Which Table Are You Feeding? ***
  16 Shortly, the great tribulation will suddenly break out, moving quickly to a climax in “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Revelation 16:14, 16) It will reach a crescendo as Jehovah destroys this system of things and the figurative table at which the world’s nations have been feeding. Jehovah will also overthrow the entire invisible organization of Satan the Devil with its hordes of demons. Those who have continued to feed at Satan’s spiritual table, the table of demons, will be forced to attend a literal meal, no, not as partakers, but as the main course—to their destruction!—See Ezekiel 39:4; Revelation 19:17, 18.

  Aren’t you all impressed by the humility that flows from the words above? Those pesky “worldly people” with all their worldly education don’t know this, somehow and strangely enough the majority of those “worldly” don’t seem to think that anyone disagreeing with them should be wiped out from the face of the earth, how haughty! Of course we can find examples of the same Watchtower-like humbleness among worldly people too. Hitler showed much of the same humility when he humbly admitted that only those belonging to the master-race should be allowed to exist, much like the humble representatives of the Watchtower Society.

  But in Brooklyn they wax eloquent in their praise of their formerly extremely humble President:

  *** w93 12/1 18 Examples of Humility to Imitate ***
  17 Another faithful servant in modern times whom Jehovah God used mightily was Joseph F. Rutherford, mentioned at the outset. He was a bold advocate of Bible truth and in particular of the name of Jehovah. Though widely known as Judge Rutherford, he was at heart a humble man. For example, he once made some dogmatic statements as to what Christians could expect in 1925. When events failed to support his expectations, he humbly told the Brooklyn Bethel family that he had made a fool of himself. An anointed Christian who had quite close association with him testified that time and again he heard Brother Rutherford apologize in the spirit of Matthew 5:23, 24, both in public and in private, for having hurt a fellow Christian by some ill-advised expression. It takes humility for one in a position of authority to apologize to those who are in subjection to him. Brother Rutherford set a fine example for all overseers, whether in a congregation, in the traveling work, or in one of the Society’s branches.

  Caught with his pant’s down after his miserable 1925 failure the Watchtower seem to think that it was a sign of humility to admit to the obvious. Yet we never see anything even resembling such an admission in the Watchtower literature at the time. The R&F who had pushed his false bullshit never heard any apologies. The legacy of J. F. Rutherford is apart from creating the monster Watchtower organization we see today, he instigated and lead the “Millions campaign” which preached 1925 as the final year, from 1918 to 1925, a complete falsehood and failure. He was also the man behind the publishing of the book, “The Finished Mystery”, which still stands as a monument of some of the worst crap and insane drivel ever produced by a millenarian cult. This complete fiasco and failure, is today hailed as:

  ”faithful servant in modern times whom Jehovah God used mightily was Joseph F. Rutherford, mentioned at the outset. He was a bold advocate of Bible truth and in particular of the name of Jehovah.”

  Well, as mentioned above, what astonishing Bible truth there was in the “Finished Mystery” and the “Millions campaign”.

  *** jv 220 15 Development of the Organization Structure ***
  However, it has been claimed by some that by advocating this organizational change, J. F. Rutherford simply was endeavoring to gain greater control over the Witnesses and that he used this means to assert his own authority. Was that really the case? There is no doubt that Brother Rutherford was a man of strong convictions. He spoke out forcefully and without compromise for what he believed to be the truth. He could be quite brusque in handling situations when he perceived that people were more concerned about self than they were about the Lord’s work. But Brother Rutherford was genuinely humble before God. As Karl Klein, who became a member of the Governing Body in 1974, later wrote: “Brother Rutherford’s prayers at morning worship . . . endeared him to me. Though he had such a powerful voice, when addressing God he sounded just like a little boy talking to his daddy. What a fine relationship with Jehovah that revealed!” Brother Rutherford was fully convinced as to the identity of Jehovah’s visible organization, and he endeavored to make sure that no man or group of men would be able to hinder brothers locally from receiving the full benefit of the spiritual food and direction that Jehovah was providing for His servants.

  The only remarkable feat with Rutherford was that he was indeed able to gain complete control over the Watchtower organization and make it into the totalitarian entity it is today. There is a lot of interesting material in the quote above. Take a look at this for example:

  “There is no doubt that Brother Rutherford was a man of strong convictions. He spoke out forcefully and without compromise for what he believed to be the truth.”

  Yes indeed, he spoke out forcefully about the “Finished mystery” and “Millions campaign”, where the end was fixed for the year 1919, 1920 and finally 1925. When the year 1925 and it was clear to everybody what a complete failure it was he suddenly became “humble” and confessed what a fool he had been to a few in his inner circle.

  “He could be quite brusque in handling situations when he perceived that people were more concerned about self than they were about the Lord’s work.”

  Yes, he was very brusque when he in an insane article declared that an entire Biblical prophecy was fulfilled on Walter Salter, the former Canadian branch overseer who dared criticize him.

  Rutherford which by that time (in 1937) had his own cult, with unlimited access to publishing books and magazines no matter what insanities they contained was loony enough to dedicate a prophecy to smear Salter’s name. (If the people on Jehovah's Witnesses.com is interested I can post an article I have written about this quite interesting incident)

  Anyway, back to the humble President Rutherford. Did you know that when Russell was the leader of the Watchtower Society he was a self appointed leader?

  *** jv 72-3 7 Advertise the King and the Kingdom! (1919-1941) ***
  A convention was scheduled in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, January 2-5, 1919, during the time that Brother Rutherford and his associates were in prison. But this was no ordinary convention—it was combined with the annual meeting of the Watch Tower Society, on Saturday, January 4, 1919. Brother Rutherford was well aware of the significance of this meeting. That Saturday afternoon he searched for Brother Macmillan and found him at the prison tennis court. According to Macmillan, this is what happened:
  “Rutherford said, ‘Mac, I want to talk to you.’
  “‘What do you want to talk to me about?’
  “‘I want to talk to you about what’s going on at Pittsburgh.’
  “‘I’d like to play this tournament out here.’
  “‘Aren’t you interested in what’s going on? Don’t you know it’s the election of officers today? You might be ignored and dropped and we’ll stay here forever.’
  “‘Brother Rutherford,’ I said, ‘let me tell you something perhaps you haven’t thought of. This is the first time since the Society was incorporated that it can become clearly evident whom Jehovah God would like to have as president.’
  “‘What do you mean by that?’
  “‘I mean that Brother Russell had a controlling vote and he appointed the different officers. Now with us seemingly out of commission the matter’s different. But, if we got out in time to go up to that assembly to that business meeting, we would come in there and would be accepted to take Brother Russell’s place with the same honor he received. It might look then like man’s work, not God’s.’
  “Rutherford just looked thoughtful and walked away.”

  If indeed the conversation went as reported it is a very interesting insight into the minds of the Watchtower leadership. First of all it offers us the evidence of the level of superstition of its leaders and the whacky reasoning obviously common to the same leadership. But when we read the following it becomes clear what the above was alluding to:

  *** jv 74 7 Advertise the King and the Kingdom! (1919-1941) ***
  The next day Brother Rutherford knocked on Macmillan’s cell wall and said: “Poke your hand out.” He then handed Macmillan a telegram saying that Rutherford had been reelected president. “He was very happy,” Macmillan later recalled, “to see this display of assurance that Jehovah was running the Society.”

  In this quote immediately above, we are presented with the ultimate proof of the immense humility of J. F. Rutherford. He became “very happy” because him being reelected was proof that “Jehovah was running the Society”. Talk about having an inflated opinion of yourself.

  Norm
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  23

  Your favorite pic from the Kingdom pubs.

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one is for jt, who is interested in body modification (lol).

  i will be the first to admit a rabid fascination with a certain picture....... back when i was about 7, i stumbled across the most fascinating picture in all of dubdom....... are you holding your breath?!?!?.

  it was in the evolution or creation book....the picture of the black, african tribal woman with that huge freakin plate in her lip!.

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  Norm

  It has to be this one:

  Notice the strict dress code the WT has for mountain hikers.

  Norm
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  37

  Silentlambs: Modern-day Folk Hero?

  by Derrick in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  he's the "knight in shining armor" for many young ones across the globe, who were spared from predators moving in for the kill.

  who was instrumental amongst jehovah's witnesses in chasing these monsters off?

  it should have been brothers in the watchtower society.

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  Norm

  Anewperson,

  You said:

  anewperson: Norm, you began with "Weak emotinalism I leave to the "true believers" after all they are the experts there." So clearly to you only atheists are Logical, Reasonable persons - which most logical reasonable atheists will also admit is false. So you indeed are emotionalizing.

  Umm, no, I know a few Christians which some times are capable of rational thought, at least up to a point. You shouldn’t try to give me attitudes I don’t have in order to criticize them.

  anewperson: You said "I try to deal with reality and as such I am still waiting for your explanation of how and when Jah has helped all the millions of victims of child abuse?" Since I also honor reality the reality is that whether you speak of our coming from no "source" of creative energy (God) or not, it is a fact, Norm, that all good things come from the efforts of good persons using their minds to do good things, as Bill has done in battling child abuse. And since Bill did not create himself, Norm, then further back in time that source/God that did do so also must get a fair share of the credit.

  
  Bill is of course like me and you a result of the union of his parents, so are the child molesters and other perverts. As you know but don’t like to address, God was and is a silent witness to all those children being abused but he never do anything to prevent it.
  That’s what I have been asking you, when did God do anything for any children anywhere? God isn’t helping them in any way and will of course never do.

  anewperson: You again mocked the idea that humans who have died can be brought back into existence even though a source/God originally brought them into existence when you remarked "Your allusion to some kind of mystic future resurrection do not help much in explaining away the obvious negligence and callousness of this Jah figure you keep bleating about." The expression "bleating about" also shows you are emotionalizing, seeking to attack me directly to cloud the reasonableness of what I said.

  
  I do not mock any idea, but you claim that Jah is helping/will be helping the victims of abuse, and when asked to produce evidence of this you start whining about mocking. There simply isn’t any reasonableness in dreaming about some future resurrection, that is something you believe and is as such not near anything even resembling reality.

  anewperson: You say God was Horrible to include the slaying of men and women and yet the humans whom you prefer to God also have done that at times and on a far bigger scale than God ever did. The Nazi's holocaust murdered possibly 10 million men, women, children; but those recorded as slain in the Old Testament do not come to a million, and for all you know God had those in the Bible slain for unspeakable acts against their own children like putting them into the arms of a metal idol, heating it red-hot and slowly burning them to death.

  
  Well, you see in this day and age we know that ethnic cleansing, genocide and butchering women in children is horrible crimes no matter who does it. I am sorry that you have to excuse your God by trying to refer to mere humans also being guilty of such atrocities. Isn’t this God supposed to be soo much better then man? Don’t you see how hopeless it is when you even stoop to the tactics of comparing the Nazi holocaust to the genocide of the Old Testamant arguing that God killed less people then the nazi’s? You try to excuse God’s behavior towards pregnant women and children because they belonged to a brutal people? What logic and reasoning do we see here? So God is no better than humans?

  anewperson: Finally, you really trip over yourself, Norm, when you say you have not used filthy language and then say the very words you did use. Which also again shows that you are not following logic and reasoning so much as emotionalizing and trying to cover it up. Now I leave it to the readers who can scroll up and down this page as to which of us is logical and reasonable in presentation.
  If you want to waste our time with debate instead of join us in simply praising Bill Bowen and victims like Erica Rodriguez for having stood up, then you are sadly misleading yourself in a waste of your time and ours.

  Cover up what dear? I have asked you some questions that you are so obviously unable to address so you have to bluster and splutter and try to change the subject the best you can. Instead of answering simple questions you attack me for “filthy” language and dream up some silly idea that I am emotional and not logic. If you call the drivel you have presented above logical and reasonable I am sorry for you. You have still not produced any example where your precious God has helped or prevented one single child from being abused. All we see from you are half baked lame excuses for the horrible deeds God perpetrated as reported in the Bible.

  I have other more direct ways of offering my support for the work Bill and others do to help the Erica’s of this world. If I were a victim of sexual abuse I would be offended if someone came bleating about God and his help. I would wonder where this God was when I as a helpless little girl was abused week after week for many years. Where was this LOVING God then? Superstition and dreams belonging in la la land, isn’t what victims of sexual abuse needs. That’s what got them into the problems in the first place.

  Norm.