Posts by OutsiderLookingIn

23

inquiring mind has 3 questions

by OutsiderLookingIn in

just a few questions from a newbie.

answer one or as many as you want.

1. why cleaners?

OutsiderLookingIn

Thanks for your comments, everyone. Very insightful.

DJS, I think you're right. Shunning is propping them up for sure. It's shameful.

23

inquiring mind has 3 questions

by OutsiderLookingIn in

just a few questions from a newbie.

answer one or as many as you want.

1. why cleaners?

Thanks for that, Under the Radar. I don't look down on it at all. Whatever you do, you should do the best you can. I was even going to include a quote from Martin Luther King about street sweepers but I don't think I can edit the OP. Was just curious because it's repeatedly mentioned here.

23

inquiring mind has 3 questions

by OutsiderLookingIn in

just a few questions from a newbie.

answer one or as many as you want.

1. why cleaners?

OutsiderLookingIn

Smiddy and everyone else, no need to worry. I have absolutely zero interest in becoming a Jehovah's witness. It's more like negative interest, if that's possible. My theory was/is that never dubs are generally naive about what awaits them and love makes it easier to bend and harder (although not impossible) to walk away. So you study or try to understand. Then only after the fact do you learn what it's all about and turn here for support.

Jan, I hear you. I've had a study going for a few months with this woman I spoke to. Not sure where she thinks it's going as my initial question was about Michael not being Jesus and how that's a very disrespectful teaching. It's disappointing she gets to count me as a study. On the other hand, I'm doing my part to reverse witness and drive those hours to baptism numbers way up There have been times when I really have to restrain myself from screaming at how badly they twist the Bible to fit their craziness. What does the Bible really teach? Not that!

23

inquiring mind has 3 questions

by OutsiderLookingIn in

just a few questions from a newbie.

answer one or as many as you want.

1. why cleaners?

OutsiderLookingIn

Beth Sarim, I just wanted to know how many non-JWs scratched the surface to know what JWs really believe only because a romantic interest is involved. Sorry if that was confusing.

TMS, I've certainly come to understand that unless the indoctrination is broken, it just can't work. It's sad and it's something I pray about, but human love does not conquer all. Which leads to another question--3b, perhaps: I've seen some advice that young or disfellowshipped JWs should just live their lives and date outside the small pond. But is that really fair to unsuspecting non-JWs? We're people too! You get involved, possibly married and all of a sudden, your dear darling sweetheart flips the script and is trying to get reinstated into a world of crazy you did not sign up for.

23

inquiring mind has 3 questions

by OutsiderLookingIn in

just a few questions from a newbie.

answer one or as many as you want.

1. why cleaners?

OutsiderLookingIn

Just a few questions from a newbie. Answer one or as many as you want.

1. Why cleaners? This isn't a class or status question. I don't look down on people for their occupation but I'm curious. I've read so many stories here that Jehovah's Witnesses are cleaners and the few I know are tidy. What's the history of that?

2. What does 2/3 leave the religion really mean? It sounds very positive, but from my anecdotal experience and what I've read here, leaving doesn't mean they won't return or that even if they're inactive they are not still heavily indoctrinated.

3. Non-JWs/never dubs: how many first learned what JWs actually believe or became interested in the business of JWs because a significant other or a romantic interest was a JW? On another thread, I mentioned that most of us mere worldlies don't know what it's really all about until it confronts us head on. I had some forewarning and still didn't understand how captive and damaging JWs could be.

Thanks.

475

What is the alternative to JW?

by Formerbrother in

i mean this with all due respect, i would like to hear from genuine people who think jw have it wrong and then what is the truth?.

im not talking about silly little quibbles here and there.. is jehovah real?

the the bible is word?

OutsiderLookingIn

Then stay where you are. That is your choice. You're right-- millions are preaching something. Some because they don't know any better, some because they're children and don't have a choice in the matter. If it doesn't matter if it's correct or that it's leading you away from Jesus and into a never-ending pursuit of good standing with a manipulative organization, then it will do.

God says, you will seek me and find me when you seek me with all of your heart (Jeremiah 29:13). You're obviously not interested in doing that. You ignore everything else I (and others) have written and question the advice to know the Bible for yourself and be discerning about a place of worship. You want someone to spoon feed their truth to you. The Watchtower is good for that. Take care.

475

What is the alternative to JW?

by Formerbrother in

i mean this with all due respect, i would like to hear from genuine people who think jw have it wrong and then what is the truth?.

im not talking about silly little quibbles here and there.. is jehovah real?

the the bible is word?

OutsiderLookingIn

FormerBrother, the truth closest to the Bible is the Bible I think it is less important to lead you to another group (that has its own agendas) and more important to lead you to what the Bible is all about. I'm not as familiar with Mormonism but I hear it has similar characteristics of the Watchtower; perhaps, that's why it feels comfortable.

You seem to focus on the preaching work exclusively. Have you considered Galatians 1:15-19 that Paul did not preach in twos? Or Acts 8 where Philip meets the Ethiopian eunuch on the road, was he paired up? Where is the biblical command to preach in twos? Yes, Jesus told his disciples to go out make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (hmmm, does the Watchtower do that?) But how to do so was not written in stone. Furthermore, would you agree that the content of preaching is significantly more important than the mere act of preaching? There are many people preaching many things; that doesn't make it true or make them any more righteous, Christian or closer to God. What is being said matters. The phrase "garbage in, garbage out" comes to mind. Is the Watchtower preaching the gospel spread by the apostles? The Watchtower is not the true religion because it teaches clean living or some Biblical truths (and even those lessons are debatable). Most moral and religious systems have many of the same principles. The difference of Christianity is Jesus. Not just that he lived and died (many will admit a historical Jesus), but that he died for our sins, rose from the dead in a physical body, and lives forever to intercede for those who come to God through Him (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Hebrews 7:25).

Someone mentioned the church without walls; this is not just some hippy-dippy concept. The church is not the building; it is the body of believers in Jesus Christ for salvation and forgiveness of sins. It sounds like you're seeking a physical place of worship. I attend worship services at a church, but first and foremost is what they're saying. I wouldn't advise you to just show up anywhere but many of the 30,000 sects of Christianity will do just fine. And you can definitely cross the WTBTS off the list as they have proven themselves false. Again: start and end with prayer and read the Bible for yourself away from the Watchtower literature. Read entire chapters and books at a time. Just think: do you read other books by jumping from one sentence in Chapter 2 to three in Chapter 5 to the last page? The Bible looks a lot different when you read it in context. Lastly, give yourself time. There is no substitute for hard work. Once you know the Bible for yourself, it's more difficult to be misled by side issues, non-issues and made-up rules. Keep the main thing the main thing--Jesus!

14

The Heresy of Neutrality

by Perry in

the one thing that keeps jw's worshiping the watchtower corporations more than (or as much as) anything else is the issue of neutrality.

neutrality is such a benign sounding word isn't it?

it even sounds religious.

OutsiderLookingIn

Great OP. I'd also add that one of the people Jesus healed was a centurion's servant (Matthew 8:5-13). When the centurion "with soldiers under [him]" came to Him, Jesus did not criticize his military involvement. Instead, He commended the man's faith.

I just thought of this-- the one thing JWs aren't neutral about is the WTBTS. They're always right, even with their chameleon doctrines, harmful policies and distortion of Scripture; everyone else is wrong. Perhaps it's why they remain trapped?

23

Non JW friends don't understand

by kozmo in

jw
friends

it never ceases to amaze me that your personal friends have no clue what it is like to have been one.

i was speaking with a friend the other day about having been a jw.

she said, oh i have a dear friend of 30 years who is one and she is so nice!

OutsiderLookingIn

A newly-joined, never a JW here. And I must admit--you're absolutely right. How are we to know? Much like JWs waking up, unless there's a reason, most people won't look any further than the superficial, which is where JWs excel. I have only known (or been aware of knowing) three or four Jehovah's Witnesses in my life. Usually it's come up over the birthday issue and it's telling that's that the only thing most people will know about them, not their "lifesaving" teaching. The few I know are intelligent, moral and generally respectful people. But I finally met one that made me curious as to what JWs really believe (a boy...isn't it always?). He was "raised as a JW", not particularly active but still indoctrinated (no birthdays/holidays) and goes to the Memorial and some Kingdom Talks, but I doubt that part. Through him, I also learned of its hypocrisy: that just because you're a JW doesn't mean you're living right (read: they're like everyone else so how can they claim this superiority and exclusivity?).

As I investigated more, it made me really discouraged and distraught. They weren't just another Christian (albeit legalistic) group. I should also mention that like James Mixon said, I attend a church that warned that JWs are a cult but before my investigation didn't know exactly what that meant besides legalism. Of course, legalism itself can be harmful and is ultimately futile (Colossians 2:23, Romans 10:1-4; Romans 14). But it's enough to say that my feelings were very conflicted. I went between anger, frustration, despair, and compassion. Anger at the wrong doctrine, manipulation and dogma that only they hold the truth. But equal to that, my heart broke because, for the most part, these are people who are seeking God and want to please Him.

So yes, non-JWs don't understand, but we can learn to. HB is another great example of this We can learn to care especially if we're given a reason to. That's where ex-JWs come in. Your stories matter. What I've read here and other sites has truly shocked me and moved me to action. Knowing what I know now, I do what I can to get the word out. I live in NYC and see many of the "apathy" carts/tables littering subway platforms in major stations. I'm pretty sure I'm a thorn in their side at this point but when I have time, I keep at it. So know that you have an ally.

475

What is the alternative to JW?

by Formerbrother in

i mean this with all due respect, i would like to hear from genuine people who think jw have it wrong and then what is the truth?.

im not talking about silly little quibbles here and there.. is jehovah real?

the the bible is word?

OutsiderLookingIn

Hi, first time posting here! I've never been a JW but I learned about this site about 6 months ago. This and another post finally pushed me to get in on the action :) To answer your question, YES, there are other alternatives! I definitely agree with Jan and Ding and many of the other responses. I believe in God and have received Jesus as my Savior and rely on His strength to get through this life. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God--all of it. I read all of it, and in its context. I have never been a JW. There are other alternatives still. Your life can have purpose without spending your waking hours pushing demonstrably false doctrines for a publishing and real estate conglomerate.
Galatians 1 is an important chapter to establish (1) that JWs can't be chosen of God because they're preaching a different gospel, one not known by Paul and the apostles (Galatians 1:6-9) and (2) that the "preaching work" as practiced by the JWs isn't the only sanctioned model. Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament didn't abide by it; he preached three years on his own (Galatians 1:15-19). And like Faye said, although correct teaching/preaching is important, much more is spoken about helping (not targeting) the vulnerable and leading a quiet, decent life than about preaching.
Then the idea that only JWs are trying to do the will of God...really? How can you reconcile that with shunning, unfulfilled (false) prophecies, sexual and other abuses, the list goes on? (I, for one, have been shocked by most of the things I've read). I attend a church that teaches the Bible as its only authority, not seven mighty men that want you to defer enjoyment and advancement in life here and now and teaches you to judge others harshly and leave the excuses for members of your small group. But I won't lie; it will require research. When I've moved to new areas, I've spent months searching for the right place.
I can only imagine it must be hard to decide what's next, but don't let that keep you in a religion that misleads and manipulates on a regular basis. Take your time. Start with prayer and the Bible (no Watchtower filler) then see where you end up. Wishing you all the best.