Thanks, TMS, for that history of the '70s version of the WTS. I lived through it as a born-in, and would have been in my teens to early 20s during that time. So much of this escaped me as a typical brainwashed and blind Witness. I have to admit that my attention during conventions, where this "new light" would have been presented, was divided since I spent most of my time scoping out the young sisters and didn't worry too much about what was being presented from the platform. I guess I benefitted from the temporary liberalization though, as I was able to be on the ministry school and run mikes, even with my chops, modish clothes, and long hair. At the time I just thought our ancient congregation servant/presiding overseer's eyesight was getting so poor he couldn't tell that I no longer met the dress code.
Socrateswannabe
JoinedPosts by Socrateswannabe
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Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering
by TMS inwith the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.
we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.
some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.
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YPA Video vs. World's Deadliest Snake
by Socrateswannabe inalright so the title of this post doesn't seem to make any sense, but give me a paragraph or two and i will try to pull these disparate subjects together.. for those still "in", this week we studied the interviews portion of the "young people ask-what will i do with my life" video.
the comments by these young people are predictable.
they extol the value of prayer, daily bible reading, personal study, meeting attendance, field service, and reaching out for other privileges.
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Socrateswannabe
Alright so the title of this post doesn't seem to make any sense, but give me a paragraph or two and I will try to pull these disparate subjects together.
For those still "in", this week we studied the Interviews portion of the "Young People Ask-What Will I Do With My Life" video. The comments by these young people are predictable. They extol the value of prayer, daily bible reading, personal study, meeting attendance, field service, and reaching out for other privileges. Repeatedly they say that young people are to "trust in Jehovah" and he will provide. Need a job to keep you in the fulltime ministry? Don't worry-Jehovah will help you find it! Too shy to preach? No problem! Jehovah will give you courage. These youngsters seemed to wholeheartedly believe in a God who watches over them 24/7, cares about their every care-and as long as they stay faithful-will guide and direct them to success.
Interestingly, only a few hours before studying this material, I stumbled across this link:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/snake-bite-inland-taipan-boy-australia-151652685.html
A young boy in Australia was bitten by what is believed to be the world's deadliest snake. According to the Reuters report, a drop of this snake's venom is strong enough to kill 100 men. A drop. Making things worse, it is not the most cautious of all creatures, in fact the report describes its personality as "fierce".
If you are a believing Jehovah's Witness, you can draw no other conclusion than God purposely created this monster with both the ability and the inclination to kill. Of course, any attempt to explain what a snake like this is doing on a planet of the benevolent Jehovah's making, will yield nothing more than nonsensical mush. The snake needed the venom for protection! On a perfect earth, protection from what? This snake didn't become a killer until after the flood! But creation ended with Eve...so it had to be created "as is" long before the original sin, and it was created to kill.
Okay, so here's where I try to put this all together. Which is it? Loving, caring heavenly father-figure who watches over his young ones and the rest of us 24/7; or cruel, sadistic creator who purposely made killing machines to walk or slither amongst us, which maime or kill other young ones? The former is out of the question, but the later seems unthinkable as well. I would rather take my chances with heartless, unfeeling evolution than try to serve and please the maker of the inland taipan snake.
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The WTS "Brain Drain"
by Quendi ini posted this on another thread and am pasting it here to start a new one because i would be interested in getting others' thoughts on it.. there has been a downward spiral in the quality of the written publications since the death of fred franz in december 1992. whatever else can be said about franz, the man did have some education and his writing was of good quality.
others in the writing department also had some skill and command of language that gave cogency to their work.
but since franz's death, a huge leadership vacuum has opened in the wts.
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Socrateswannabe
Haven't they simply run out of compelling things to write about? Fred Franz and his cronies could beat the drum for 1975 and the supposed 6000 year anniversary of man's creation, and in the 1970's, the generation theory--those who were old enough to understand what was happening in 1914--was still (barely) valid. Now, any idea that there is a valid date to work for is gone. What biblical prophecy could they possibly hang their hat on at this point, that will inspire R&F confidence? Fred was crazy enough or gutsy enough to let it all hang out and go for a date. Present GB members don't have that kind of fire, and, they're simply out of ammo!
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A Kinder, Gentler Jehovah Emerges at the 2012 DC?
by Socrateswannabe inhaving attended this summer's district convention, i'm confused.
has a kinder, gentler jehovah emerged?.
acquiring an obedient heart-is it possible?
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Socrateswannabe
@tresdecu: I don't think any talks are manuscripts any more, even at the DC. I could be wrong about that but I think they're all outlines and the instructions are to stick closely to the script, but that it's acceptable to throw in a few short, appropriate experiences or illustrations to make things interesting. I doubt that this Kinder and gentler Jehovah was the result of a rogue speaker, especially since these notes are from five separate talks and five different speakers over the three days. There's an agenda there, I just can't figure out what it is.
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A Kinder, Gentler Jehovah Emerges at the 2012 DC?
by Socrateswannabe inhaving attended this summer's district convention, i'm confused.
has a kinder, gentler jehovah emerged?.
acquiring an obedient heart-is it possible?
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Socrateswannabe
Having attended this summer's district convention, I'm confused. Has a kinder, gentler Jehovah emerged?
Acquiring An Obedient Heart-Is It Possible? Even wicked ones who have a bad heart (2 Chron. 33:6 re: King Manasseh) can be adjusted. From verses 12 and 15-16 of that chapter, we can glean that Jehovah obviously focuses on our heart condition and not on a single act of disobedience. The accounts of David's sin with Bathsheba and the turnaround of King Manasseh are in the bible for a reason--to show us that Jehovah is ready to forgive past sins. Jehovah doesn't want us to beat ourselves up over past sins, but wants us to move forward (and with no mention of the necessity of a confession either to God or to a judicial committee in order to accomplish that).
Do You Have A Balanced View of Yourselves? Many of us think too little of ourselves. 2 Samuel 24:10 says that David's heart began to beat him after his sin with Bathsheba. The speaker then said, "But sometimes your heart continues to beat you up long after it should stop." More words of comfort followed, but again, there was no call to confess.
Symposium: Guard Your Heart Against the Words of the Flesh/Fornication, Uncleanness, and Brazen Conduct. A more tolerant view toward homosexuals? Sort of. While still hating the sin (homosexuality), we imitate God in his view of the person practicing the wrong: "Let it be known that we honor men and women of all sorts, regardless of their sexual orientation." The speaker said that the bible doesn't comment on genetic issues and so the organization likewise can make no comment on that aspect of the issue, but homosexuals can be held to the same standard as heterosexual single persons: they can choose not to act upon their urges.
God Is Greater Than Our Hearts. Many times we are too self-critical, we over-estimate what Jehovah expects of us, and we feel guilty over past sins. We are reminded of Ps 38:4-10, where it says that Jehovah puts our sins so far away from himself that it is like from the sunrise to the sunset. God is, according to 1 John 3:19-20, "greater than our hearts." Jehovah sees, not just what we do, but he searches our hearts for right inclinations and recognizes more than just our imperfect actions. He sees our potential for good as well as our bent toward badness.Jehovah knows our genetics and our circumstances and takes these things into consideration. He knows that many of us want to do better, but like the apostle Paul, we oftentimes fall short.
Symposium: Serve Jehovah With Your Whole Heart, As Did...Peter. When Peter denied Jesus three times, it was not because he was a wicked person; he was simply caught off guard. Jesus was able to see past this momentary indiscretion, as evidenced by the fact that he appeared to Peter one-on-one soon thereafter; obviously a sign of his forgiveness toward him. Peter rejoined the rest of the apostles and disciples and picked up where he left off in the ministry rather than tucking his tail and running because of his sin. We can imitate Peter when, even having committed a grave sin, we immediately seek out association with our spiritual brothers and sisters at the meetings. We can't allow a grave sin to paralyze us; rather we must continue to move ahead. We must repent and receive forgiveness, not sit around and punish ourselves. When we fall, what matters most is not the depth of our fall but the strength that we show in getting up. After all, Prov. 24:16 says that righteous will fall seven times!
Are you as confused as I? Is this the "new" Jehovah? Has the WTS reinvented him to be more tolerant of our foibles, and even our "grave sins"? I was especially surprised by the comment, "Jehovah knows our genetics and our circumstances and takes these things into consideration." Has the WTS ever before admitted that genetics and circumstances (or nature and nurture) might come into play when it comes to our ability to follow their rigid code of conduct? Seems to me in the past their stance was, "No excuse!"
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Anyone use to have horrible nightmares as a child & afriad of the dark due to all the Watchtower Society talk of Demons and Satan??
by mind blown inas a little child i used to have horrible, horrible nightmares do to all the satan/ demon and big a talk.
i was also horrified of the dark for the same reason.
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Socrateswannabe
In a way, it's infuriating to read these posts, since, as Laverite expressed it, it is a form of child abuse and as usual, the Org gets away with it. But for me, it's also somewhat cathartic. Beginning with some of my earliest recollections as a young child and continuing into my teens, nightmares and irrational fears of demons and retribution from "Jehovah" were a terrifying part of my life. The catharsis comes in now knowing that I'm not the only one who was wrecked by all of this.
I can blame my irrational fears on three things: 1.) The Society's literature of the time (Paradise book as some have mentioned, WT articles of the same ilk, "Then is Finished the Mystery of God" book, "Babylon the Great Has Fallen" book, etc., 2.) A fire-and-brimstone congregation servant (forerunner of the PO/COBOE). This guy took every opportunity to describe in detail what he thought would happen to the wicked at Armageddon (eyes rotting in sockets, etc.), and of course, I imagined myself, even at 6 years old, as very wicked. Finally, I can thank my hypocritical quasi-JW parents, who reveled in demon stories and told them as entertainment around the dinner table. There was nothing I could do to stop the congregation servant from spitting his vitriol or the Society from doing it's fear-mongering, but I repeatedly begged my parents not to tell demon stories in front of me. They thought that was funny, so even when I would leave the room, they'd manage to torment me with them the next chance they got. Nice folks, both in good standing with the organization!
When I was about 16 years old, I discovered that if you become drunk enough, neither demons nor divine retribution are scary. Thus began a 20 year love/hate relationship with alcohol. By the way, booze also dulls feelings of guilt, which I had plenty of.
It was only when I reached my 30's that I woke up to the fact that Witness teachings, the bible in general, my congregation servant of so long ago, and my imbecilic parents, are the real demons in this whole mess. Once that idea was firmly in place, I was no longer in mortal dread of the unknown, and I had the internal fortitude to stop drinking altogether (20 years sober).
I am still an active Witness, not because I believe any of what they teach, but because I can't bear to sever ties with my family (my REAL family--wife and kids). So there is some guilt there because of living a lie, but it's manageable. Thanks to Mind Blown for starting this thread. I am not alone!
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Today's wt study article quotes a Nazi mass murderer as a reference
by fugue intoday's study article, "do not look at the things behind," from the 3/15/12 study edition, which was reviewed by blondie in her thread, has a footnote on paragraph 12.. the original-language word here translated refuse.
also meant what is thrown to the dogs,.
dung, excrement.
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Socrateswannabe
They are either too naïve to believe that their anonymous source can be easily traced using a google search of the phrase (I googled it and the third hit identifies the author of the quote), or, they have decided to play the odds, in the belief that the vast majority of JWs reading the article will take anything they say at face value.
Scholarly articles and journals cite source notes on all references, otherwise the material cannot be taken seriously. The WTS cites sources only when it feels the person or reference being quoted is prestigious or paradoxical (using a quote from a Catholic publication to refute the trinity, etc.). Using terms such as "one scholar" hoists a red flag and indicates that they have something to hide. It is dishonest writing. Yet, except for the roughly 1000 of us who have viewed this thread, it seems that they have gotten away with it.
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Thanks to all
by Socrateswannabe ini am by nature a reticent soul.
i am perfectly happy to watch from the sidelines as others debate and contest, poke, prod, and cajole one another.
as an observer, i still gain.
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Socrateswannabe
You guys really know how to make a person feel welcome and accepted. OODAD, thanks for placing a link to the book into your post. I'll learn how to do that soon I hope. Panhandlegirl, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll try it!
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Thanks to all
by Socrateswannabe ini am by nature a reticent soul.
i am perfectly happy to watch from the sidelines as others debate and contest, poke, prod, and cajole one another.
as an observer, i still gain.
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Socrateswannabe
Thank all of you for the warm welcome and kind words!
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Thanks to all
by Socrateswannabe ini am by nature a reticent soul.
i am perfectly happy to watch from the sidelines as others debate and contest, poke, prod, and cajole one another.
as an observer, i still gain.
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Socrateswannabe
Greetings. I am by nature a reticent soul. I am perfectly happy to watch from the sidelines as others debate and contest, poke, prod, and cajole one another. As an observer, I still gain. In the past year or so of lurking, many of you have provided me with profound insight and more than a few chuckles along the way. Just don't expect much in return; I like to watch, as Peter Sellers so aptly put it in "Being There".
I am an active Witness and will probably remain so the rest of my life. I value my family over my principles. I will never do anything to alienate them from me or to cast doubt on their own cherished beliefs. So I am a closet agitator with an audience of one--me.
However I think it is worth stating (and breaking from my cocoon for the first time) that one of the ironies of the Witness religion is its insistence upon personal reading, studying, and meditating upon the Bible by its members. As a born-in, I had somehow successfully avoided reading the Bible in its entirety until about 5 years ago. As most JWs, I took it one or two verses at a time; provided to me on a silver platter by the FDS. The irony comes, in my opinion, in that a cover-to-cover reading of the Bible is the very thing that convinced me that the Bible itself, along with this very literally-adhering religion that promotes it, can only be false.
You have covered the details of this far better than I can; topics on the subject abound on JWN. I stumbled upon a thread recently, that provides a link to a definitive work: "The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories", by Fred Titanich. This is not only my first post on JWN but my first post on any sort of forum like this, so I won't even pretend to know how to link to this or to point the reader toward a download of this wonderful book, but I do know that googling the title will put you in the right place if you've not already discovered it. It is a worthy read. Couple it with "Crisis of Conscience", and I think you have a good start toward educating yourself on the JW religion.
The purpose of my introductory post is to thank Fred for his book, if he is still reading this site, and to express my appreciation to all of you for your contributions to my continuing education. Maybe I'll gain courage to continue the dialogue.
Socrates Wannabe