Posts by JWB

6

What "day of the Lord" is Malachi 4:5 referring to?

by JWB in

what "day of the lord" is malachi 4:5 referring to?.

in another thread a poster pointed to isaiah 13:12-13, which got me thinking about the expression "the day of the lord".

this appears to have been a term used in the bible with reference to times of divine judgement.

JWB

Vidqun, thanks for that.

Larsinger58 thanks for letting us know your interpretation. 1874 seems to ring a bell! Didn't CTR proclaim that as a special year and then much later the WTS pointed out his 100 year calculation error (which I understand ended up being 'repackaged' as the autumn of 1974 for the end of six thousand years of man's existence on this earth).
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Matthew 24:19-22 and Mark 13:14-20 connect the "great tribulation" with the time period when those who heeded Jesus' warning would "begin fleeing to the mountains" (verse 16). For the benefit of any readers not familiar with the writings of Jewish historian Josephus, I've included some extracts below that deal with events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. These are taken from chapters 5 and 6 of "The Wars of the Jews". I've added some highlighting to show how the author viewed the situation.
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Extracts from Josephus' writings

"It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly:- That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world. Finally, they brought the Hebrew nation into contempt, that they might themselves appear comparatively less impious with regard to strangers. They confessed what was true, that they were the slaves, the scum, and the spurious and abortive offspring of our nation, while they overthrew the city themselves, and forced the Romans, whether they would or no, to gain a melancholy reputation, by acting gloriously against them, and did almost draw that fire upon the temple, which they seemed to think came too slowly; and, indeed, when they saw that temple burning from the upper city, they were neither troubled at it, nor did they shed any tears on that account while yet these passions were discovered among the Romans themselves; which circumstances we shall speak of hereafter in their proper place, when we come to treat of such matters." (The Wars of the Jews 5.10.5 [www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/war5.html])

"3. Now the number [*] of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly. And that this city could contain so many people in it, is manifest by that number of them which was taken under Cestius, who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, entreated the high priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude. So these high priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten [**] belong to every sacrifice, (for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves,) and many of us are twenty in a company, found the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty-six thousand five hundred; which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to two millions seven hundred thousand and two hundred persons that were pure and holy; for as to those that have the leprosy, or the gonorrhea, or women that have their monthly courses, or such as are otherwise polluted, it is not lawful for them to be partakers of this sacrifice; nor indeed for any foreigners neither, who come hither to worship." (The Wars of the Jews 6.9.3 [www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/war6.html])

"Now this vast multitude is indeed collected our of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in a prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made search for underground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew there above two thousand persons, partly by their own hands, and partly by one another, but chiefly destroyed by the famine; but then, the ill savor of the dead bodies was most offensive to those that lighted upon them, insomuch that some were obliged to get away immediately, while others were so greedy of gain, that they would go in among the dead bodies that lay in heaps, and tread upon them; for a great deal of treasure was found in these caverns, and the hope of gain made every way of getting it to be esteemed lawful. Many also of those that had been put in prison by the tyrants were now brought out; for they did not leave off their barbarous cruelty at the very last; yet did God avenge himself upon them both, in a manner agreeable to justice. As for John, he wanted food, together with his brethren, in these caverns, and begged that the Romans would now give him their right hand for his security, which he had often proudly rejected before; but for Simon, he struggled hard with the distress he was in, till he was forced to surrender himself, as we shall relate hereafter; so he was reserved for the triumph, and to be then slain: as was John condemned to perpetual imprisonment; and now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city, and burnt them down, and entirely demolished its walls." (The Wars of the Jews 6.9.4 [www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/war6.html])
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Footnotes from William Whiston's translation

* "The whole multitude of the Jews that were destroyed during the entire seven years before this time, in all the countries of and bordering on Judea, is summed up by Archbishop Usher, from Lipsius, out of Josephus, at the year of Christ 70, and amounts to 1,337,490. Nor could there have been that number of Jews in Jerusalem to be destroyed in this siege, as will be presently set down by Josephus, but that both Jews and proselytes of justice were just then come up out of the other countries of Galilee, Samaria, Judea, and Perea and other remoter regions, to the passover, in vast numbers, and therein cooped up, as in a prison, by the Roman army, as Josephus himself well observes in this and the next section, and as is exactly related elsewhere, B. V. ch. 3. sect. 1 and ch. 13. sect. 7."

** "This number of a company for one paschal lamb, between ten and twenty, agrees exactly with the number thirteen, at our Savior's last passover. As to the whole number of the Jews that used to come up to the passover, and eat of it at Jerusalem, see the note on B. II. ch. 14. sect. 3. This number ought to be here indeed just ten times the number of the lambs, or just 2,565,(D0, by Josephus's own reasoning; whereas it is, in his present copies, no less than 2,700,(D0, which last number is, however, nearest the other number in the place now cited, which is 3,000,000. But what is here chiefly remarkable is this, that no foreign nation ever came thus to destroy the Jews at any of their solemn festivals, from the days of Moses till this time, but came now upon their apostasy from God, and from obedience to him. Nor is it possible, in the nature of things, that in any other nation such vast numbers should be gotten together, and perish in the siege of any one city whatsoever, as now happened in Jerusalem."

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What "day of the Lord" is Malachi 4:5 referring to?

by JWB in

what "day of the lord" is malachi 4:5 referring to?.

in another thread a poster pointed to isaiah 13:12-13, which got me thinking about the expression "the day of the lord".

this appears to have been a term used in the bible with reference to times of divine judgement.

JWB

Thanks Vidqun for the post. I did read through it all. For the sake of myself and others who may not know, please would you be so kind as to tell us what TDOT, TLOT, and TDNT are? It would be informative also for us to know whose opinions the text represents. Thanks.

Anyway, taking just the view of the authors of the text reproduced by Vidqun, it would seem that they view Malachi's "day of the Lord" as finding fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem, 70 CE:

"Later, through the prophet Malachi, another 'great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah' was foretold. At Pentecost of 33 CE Peter explained that they were experiencing the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy (2:28-32) concerning the outpouring of God’s spirit, and this too was due to happen before the 'great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah' (Acts 2:16-21). THAT 'DAY' CAME IN 70 CE WHEN JEHOVAH CAUSED THE ARMIES OF ROME TO EXECUTE DIVINE JUDGMENT UPON THE NATION THAT HAD REJECTED HIS SON (cf. John 19:15; Dan. 9:24-27)."

This is interesting because Luke 21:22 explains that the time period to which the gospel refers was marked as "days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled" (NWT).

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My personal thanks to Steven Unthank

by JWB in

jw
friends

dear steven,.

yesterday i listened to your recorded interview with richard.

you took the time to give a history of your battle to get the wts to comply with child protection laws in victoria, australia.

JWB

Dear Steven,

Yesterday I listened to your recorded interview with Richard. You took the time to give a history of your battle to get the WTS to comply with child protection laws in Victoria, Australia. Sir, I take my hat off to you! Such dedication as you put in is to be applauded. You are a man after my own heart, a man with a strong sense of justice. Do not believe for one moment that your efforts have been in vain. You may not have forced the organization to stand under real scrutiny in the courts, but your dedication and love for justice has paid off in forcing the WTS to comply with the law. As a result you have gained a victory for the little ones. Nobody must be allowed to take credit for that other than you yourself. However small and insignifant your efforts may appear to have been in the grand scheme of things, you have a place in history now. This is your reward for putting truth and justice and concern for children's welfare first, despite the personal cost! How many other people would have done as you have?

Quite rightly you should be proud of yourself. Hold your head up high because you have made a difference in this world by fighting against the odds. When I heard about all the problems you had with officials not doing their job properly, even though I know this is nothing new, I was still annoyed that so many people from whom the public expect a real "duty of care" don't have the guts to stand up and help the cause of justice. But it seems to me that throughout history it has usually been the very small minority who, despite the obstacles, have caused the greatest changes for good. Unlike the cowardly group-oriented "yes" men who inhabit this world and who say "my country/group right or wrong", people like you have the courage to stand alone if needs be and say "NOT my country/group if it is wrong".

Thank you very much!

JWB

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What "day of the Lord" is Malachi 4:5 referring to?

by JWB in

what "day of the lord" is malachi 4:5 referring to?.

in another thread a poster pointed to isaiah 13:12-13, which got me thinking about the expression "the day of the lord".

this appears to have been a term used in the bible with reference to times of divine judgement.

JWB

WHAT "DAY OF THE LORD" IS MALACHI 4:5 REFERRING TO?

In another thread a poster pointed to Isaiah 13:12-13, which got me thinking about the expression "the day of the Lord". This appears to have been a term used in the Bible with reference to times of divine judgement. In the case of the "day of the Lord" spoken of in Isaiah 13, the judgement was against Babylon. If you look at Malachi 4:5 you'll see mention again of "the day of the Lord". This speaks about Elijah the prophet being sent before that day came. If we are to accept Jesus' words at Matthew 11:13-14, that "He [John the baptist] is Elijah who is destined to come", what is "the day of the Lord" that he is connected with?

20

Baptism

by new one in

i just wanted to ask a question as regards jw baptism.

i already know that just before the actual baptism the soon to be jw has to answer 2 questions, but what i'd like to know is this: during the actual baptism do the jw's stick to matt 28:19 "baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit" ?.

thanks in advance for any help.. i'd also like to know if it would be possible to speak privatly with one of the more experianced members.

JWB

Chris, how about asking him this question:

Are JWs under the ecclesiastical authority of anyone?

If he says, 'No', he is either amazingly ignorant, or he is lying.

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NEW TO JWN and Lovin it!! A Little about me

by Zordino in

jw
friends

hello all, i've been on this site for a few weeks (reading for longer) and i have to say this site has helped me a great deal.

i see from reading all the posts that many many people share my views on the whole jw thing and i'm so glad i can express myself without getting into problems with getting reported to the elders or something.

i am currently in my late 30's happily married to a jaydub with 2 kids.

JWB

Welcome Zordino,

My recommendations:

1. Love your wife and try not to help reinforce what she's been told about 'opposers'/'apostates' by backing her into a corner. Just remember she's a victim of sophisticated programming.

2. Remain, as far as possible, on good terms with the local JWs and try not to help reinforce what they've been told about 'opposers'/'apostates' by backing them into a corner. Just remember they are victims of sophisticated programming.

3. Keep ever aware that as a 'born-in' you may have some residual FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt) lurking within. Just remember you have been a victim of sophisticated programming.

Obviously, dependent thinking for years and years creates people who find it difficult to think independently and therefore face the doubts which otherwise would naturally occur. "Institutionalization" is also something I think can occur which makes it very difficult for a lot of people to face a life without the support of a mother organization. I suggest that from time to time, you drop things carefully into conversations with your wife that open up her mind a little without pointing directly to the organization.

Here is an example. A JW wife is interested in how people cope in communistic countries with the State restricting things such as free speech. Since she has strong opinions about this and is fascinated by the stories of defectors, her husband knows he can reach her thinking abilities by talking about this subject and making comments about how bad it is that people are not allowed to think for themselves, etc. After some time doing this the ability to think and compare without the barrier of prejudice helps the wife to start waking up.

20

Baptism

by new one in

i just wanted to ask a question as regards jw baptism.

i already know that just before the actual baptism the soon to be jw has to answer 2 questions, but what i'd like to know is this: during the actual baptism do the jw's stick to matt 28:19 "baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit" ?.

thanks in advance for any help.. i'd also like to know if it would be possible to speak privatly with one of the more experianced members.

JWB

Well, those of us who got baptized in the '70s never agreed to get truth exclusively under the 'enlightening power' of "God's spirit-directed organization" (aka the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania, who incidentally hold the copyright to the 'spiritual food'). Ours was a much more scriptural one:

"On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?" ("Baptizing Follows Discipling", from the 1 May 1973 Watchtower.)

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What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

by JWB in

what scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.

this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.

does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?

JWB

Thanks for your input everybody.

I'm afraid I'm not interested in how scholars have interpreted Daniel 4. What is important here is what "the One who is the Revealer of secrets" (Daniel 2:29; NWT) [ie God] reveals by way of interpretation. It is not for scholars to inject their own views, but rather to read the text and see what is plainly stated. What did the Revealer reveal to Daniel as to the interpretation? "This is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king" (Daniel 4:24).

This was not a dream about the Messianic kingdom, because verse 26 shows that the rootstock of the tree had to do with Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom. The reason for seven years of humiliation was to teach the king a lesson in humility because of his pride (verses 29, 37). He was also to suffer such humiliation "until [he knew] that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it" (verse 25).

Although it may be tempting to take certain parts which seem like they refer to Jesus, such as "a twig out of the stump of Jesse" (Isaiah 11:1) [rootstock], and "he was despised, and we held him of no account" (Isaiah 53:3) [lowliest of mankind], the fact of the matter is that Daniel's interpretation was quite specific as to whom it applied.

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What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

by JWB in

what scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.

this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.

does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?

JWB

"BEYOND THE THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN"

Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apollos for your good, that in our case you may learn the [rule]: "Do not go beyond the things that are written," in order that you may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other. [1 Corinthians 4:6]

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[1] An Ancient Prophetic Dream

One of those "sacred secrets" is contained in the Bible book of Daniel. That book provides essentials for determining the time for the giving of royal authority to God’s appointed king. In the fourth chapter of that book you will find narrated a divinely sent dream of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. What was the intent or purpose of this dream and its fulfillment? The record states:
"That people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind."--Daniel 4:17.
The content of the dream was basically this: An immense tree was seen being chopped down at the command of a "holy one," an angel. The stump of the tree was then banded to prevent it from sprouting. It was to remain thus banded amid the "grass of the field" for "seven times."--Daniel 4:13-16.
What was the meaning of this dream? The inspired explanation of the prophet Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar was:
"The tree that you beheld, . . . it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.
"And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: 'Chop the tree down, and ruin it. However, leave its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it,' this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.
"And because they said to leave the rootstock of the tree, your kingdom will be sure to you after you know that the heavens are ruling."--Daniel 4:20-26.
So this dream had an initial fulfillment upon King Nebuchadnezzar. For "seven times," or seven literal years, Nebuchadnezzar was insane. His kingdom, however, was held secure for him so that, upon regaining soundness of mind, he again assumed his royal office.--Daniel 4:29-37.

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[2] Good News of the Kingdom Preached in All the Inhabited Earth

About 60-61 C.E., Paul reported in his letter to the Colossians that the good news was "bearing fruit and increasing in all the world" and had been "preached in all creation that is under heaven." (Col. 1:5, 6, 23) The early Christians had been obedient to the Word, and holy spirit had empowered them to accomplish a worldwide preaching work before the end of the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. A seemingly impossible task had been completed. How encouraging it was for those faithful Christians workers to hear reports of what was being accomplished!
In like manner, Jehovah's modern-day organization endeavors to keep precise records of the work being done in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14, which says: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." As dedicated servants of God, we have an urgent work to do...
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NOTES:

* All literature extracts and Bible quotations are from sources published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (WTB&TS).

** All underlining and bold are my own, introduced in order to emphasize certain parts of the text. Underlining shows Scriptural revelation, whereas bold shows where the WTB&TS points to extensions of Scripture.

[1] This extract is from the book "Is This Life All There Is?" (1974), Chapter 18. The chapter goes on to give the prophecy an extra or 'greater' fulfillment. It also claims "the evidence is that these 'seven times' amounted to 2,520 days, that is, seven prophetic years of 360 days each." By taking 607 BCE, which the WTB&TS regards as the true date of the first destruction of Jerusalem, and adding 2,520 years (days converted to years) to that date, 1914 CE comes into focus as the year in which Jesus Christ began his invisible presence as King over the earth.

[2] This extract is from page 84 of the book "Organized To Do Jehovah's Will". Interestingly, Volume 4 of the 1984 Revised Large Print edition of the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" makes reference to Matthew 24:14 in connection with Colossians 1:23.

The WTB&TS gives credence to second or 'greater' fulfillments of prophecy, 'prophetic dramas', and 'antitypes'. These theological devices have been employed to make certain passages of the Bible appear to: (a) refer to the modern age in general, and (b) refer to the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses in particular. The fact that Charles Taze Russell was initially influenced by the Adventist movement may have been responsible for laying the foundation for this type of reasoning.

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What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

by JWB in

what scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.

this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.

does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?

JWB

I'm happy that this thread has proved of interest! However, it was not my intention to address the topic of when certain prophecies (or parts thereof) happened, just simply to ask for scriptural evidence for the belief in second/greater fulfillments. Maybe another thread could be started on the timing of prophecies?

Below is a copy of an article I wrote for a blog some time ago, that looks briefly at a couple of 'second fulfillments'.