Leolaia, thank you so much for taking the time to write and post your information here, I really enjoyed reading it as you show the progression of ideas that led up to the seven thousand year creative day doctrine. Here are some of my thoughts on the information you provided:
The third paragraph provides valuable information concerning what the original writer would have meant by 'in that day', with a helpful comparative reference to 1 Kings 2:37.
Interestingly, The Jewish Bible (Tanakh The Holy Scriptures) translates Genesis 2:17 into English as follows.
"but as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for AS SOON AS you eat of it; you shall die."
Also helpful was the information relating to Justin Martyr's idea about some kind of week of 1000 year 'days'. This appears to me to be the root of such speculative thinking on the length of supposed creative days, something that quite evidently is not to be found within the Bible itself. So here we see an emergence maybe of a kind of dispensationalism and reliance on extra-biblical writings to form doctrine on this subject?
The author of Barnabas gives his own speculation on what constitutes the length of a creative 'day', although I cannot see how he arrives at such a reasoning, since by his own words he shows he understands a 'day' to be a thousand years, so a creative day must amount to a thousand years in duration. To me there appears to be an assumption that the six days of creation is a model for a kind of 'greater fulfillment' realised within the seventh day itself.
So, the WTS has basically derived its creative day doctrine from "Christendom", leading all the way back to some of the so-called Church Fathers.
Thanks again.
Posts by JWB
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27What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Leolaia, thanks for your lengthy post. I will need to read it of course before commenting.
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Ucantnome, I understand the reasoning of counting from 4026 BCE and having to include the 1,000 year reign, but this still does not address the question of Biblical support for a seven thousand year 'creative day'. Why not have a ten thousand year 'creative day' counting from 4026 BCE? Or even a twelve thousand year one? My interest here is whether belief in a 7000 year 'creative day' is specifically supported by the Bible. What I have found so far is that it is not. Accepting a starting point of 4026 BCE and including a thousand year reign into the calculation does not of itself tell us how long the period from 4026 BCE to the end of the 1000 year reign is. BTW, please don't think I'm taking issue with you personally as I appreciate your input. Maybe I'm not making myself clear enough?
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My heart goes out to poor Caleb
by JWB ina quick personal take on the new wts dvd for kids:.
1) the father seems like a robot (reminded me of arnie in the terminator).. .
2) the mother has a split personality, one moment she's all nice the next she's flipping out when the programming takes over.. .
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JWB
A quick personal take on the new WTS DVD for kids:
1) The father seems like a robot (reminded me of Arnie in The Terminator).
2) The mother has a split personality, one moment she's all nice the next she's flipping out when the programming takes over.
3) The daughter is hardly seen, and when she is its as if she's in a world of her own.
4) The son (Caleb) seems to be the only normal person in the household. It's such a pity that this pleasant boy is in a few short years going to be a fully reprogrammed mind-control slave! -
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Thanks everybody for the very interesting answers.
@Farkel: The scripture you mentioned is Psalm 90:4, which the NWT renders as, "For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night." 2 Peter 3:8 (NWT) also says, "However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." These two scriptures are the only ones I can think of that make any reference to a 'day', but these do not give any support to the doctrine of a seven thousand year 'creative day'. As you have pointed out, really the WTS belief in this is based purely on speculation, yet they use this as an anchor for their teaching of the supposed nearness of Armageddon.
@Flat_Accent: I think you show very well that sometimes less is more. Also, I really liked the invisible presence of your message!
@Ucantnome: Let us suppose that the 'creative day' was still in progress during Paul's time. That still doesn't tell us exactly how long that 'creative day' was/is.
@Chariklo: Very good point about the numerology. It seems to me that the WTS has always had an interest in numbers, trying to use different calculations to make the Bible say something that it does not.
@moggy lover: Thanks for laying out the reasoning on God's rest period. As pointed out in my message to Ucantnome, they cannot use that to support a specified period of seven thousand years.
To sum up my conclusions on this matter so far: (1) There is no clear Biblical support for the belief in seven thousand year 'creative days' and (2) hence there is no clear Biblical support that Armageddon is just around the corner. -
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
WHAT BIBLICAL SUPPORT IS THERE FOR THE BELIEF THAT A CREATIVE DAY IS 7000 YEARS LONG?
As most folks here are probably well aware, the WTS teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ to restore humans to perfection. They teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'. So I would like to know if there is any proof from the Bible that a 'creative day' really is seven thousand years long. I would also be very interested in knowing where this idea originally came from. -
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JWB
I think a child aged five years should understand these words:
"All this happened to Nebuchadnezzar the king." "Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled..." - (Daniel 4:28, 33)
Reading through Daniel 4 without the extra-biblical idea of 'greater fulfillments' a young person should be able to grasp the fact that, according to the Bible itself, all of the prophecy was fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar's day. That being the case, the date 607 BCE is irrelevant. -
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"The Most Embarrassing Book in the Bible - Understanding the Book of Revelation"
by JWB inthe most embarrassing book in the bible - understanding the book of revelation.
in a short 36 minute video, andrew corbett discusses an alternative view of the bible book of revelation.
his position is interesting as it attempts to place much of the subject matter of the book in a first century context with rome as the seven-headed wild beast and jerusalem as the great harlot.
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JWB
THE MOST EMBARRASSING BOOK IN THE BIBLE - UNDERSTANDING THE BOOK OF REVELATION
In a short 36 minute video, Andrew Corbett discusses an alternative view of the Bible book of Revelation. His position is interesting as it attempts to place much of the subject matter of the book in a first century context with Rome as the Seven-headed Wild Beast and Jerusalem as the Great Harlot. I assume the author believes, as some others do, that the popular dating for the book is wrong. Note, Charles Taze Russell and the WTS even get a mention.
http://vimeo.com/8546487 -
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Watchtower Dec 2011 Makes fun of fools who think the end is 2012. Ironic??
by Witness 007 inwachtower dec 1 2011 p.10 "french village faces influx of apocalypse believers...they believe the world will end 21 december 2012 when the end of....ancient maya calander...despite predictions by calamity-howling religious leaders, pseudoscientists, and any other prognosticators, earth will be in existence for a long time...when will this occur?
no human knows.
jehovah's witnesses do not try to predict when god will destroy the wicked...{really?
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JWB
WHAT FUTURE FOR THE YOUNG?, Awake! 22 May 1969, pages 14 & 15
YOUNG or old, you need to face up to the fact that this system is not going to change its direction. Under Satan's influence, it will continue to deteriorate rapidly in its remaining years.
The truth of this can be seen in crime statistics everywhere. In the United States the Federal Bureau of Investigation reported that in 1968 there was a fantastic 17-percent increase in crime over 1967. This came on top of many years of other large increases. The population, however, grew only one percent last year. So crime exploded seventeen times as fast as the population!
If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914, Jesus foretold: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."--Matt. 24:34.
Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!
This is why parents who base their lives on God's prophetic Word find it much more practical to direct their young ones into trades that do not require such long periods of additional schooling. And trades such as carpentry, plumbing, and others, will be useful not only now, but perhaps even more so in the reconstruction work that will take place in God's new order.
With such practical trades, many young persons have been able to sustain themselves with part-time work. This allows them to spend much more of their time helping interested persons to learn God's requirements for life by studying the Bible with them.
True, those who do not understand where we are in the stream of time from God's viewpoint will call this impractical. But which is really practical: preparing yourself for a position in this world that soon will pass away? or working toward surviving this system's end and enjoying eternal life in God's righteous new order?--1 John 2:17.
In these urgent times, as this wicked system writhes in its death pangs, this counsel from God's Word is most practical for all who want to keep living: "My son, my law do not forget, and my commandments may your heart observe, because length of days and years of life and peace will be added to you."--Prov. 3:1, 2.[Emphasis and italics mine]
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A second fulfillment of Daniel 4:10-17, the thread by which their 'spiritual authority' hangs
by JWB ina second fulfillment of daniel 4:10-17, the thread by which their 'spiritual authority' hangs.
if one were to get to the doctrinal root of the present-day wt society, it surely would have to be the belief in 1914 as the beginning of the heavenly reign of christ and the subsequent choosing of a 'faithful and discreet slave' to take charge of all his 'earthly belongings'.. .
the belief is that the 'faithful and discreet slave' has graduated from the one task of serving 'spiritual food' to being essentially the chief representative of jesus in the earthly realm.
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JWB
A SECOND FULFILLMENT OF DANIEL 4:10-17, THE THREAD BY WHICH THEIR 'SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY' HANGS
If one were to get to the doctrinal root of the present-day WT Society, it surely would have to be the belief in 1914 as the beginning of the heavenly reign of Christ and the subsequent choosing of a 'faithful and discreet slave' to take charge of all his 'earthly belongings'.
The belief is that the 'faithful and discreet slave' has graduated from the one task of serving 'spiritual food' to being essentially the chief representative of Jesus in the earthly realm. Having that view means that all truly faithful JWs believe they must follow all directions given by the Governing Body. To do otherwise would mean to disobey Christ himself. There is no one higher in the ecclesiastical heirarchy, and there certainly is no group of 'anointed' ones to check the hand of the GB (even though they claim to be the representatives of the 'anointed').
Maybe that is why with many JWs you may try to reason with them doctrinally on various beliefs 'peculiar to' JWs but with no effect. Also, if the duly appointed earthly representative of Jesus (as they see it) says 'let there be [new] light', then it comes to be so in their minds. Trying to lop off the various doctrinal branches without being aware of the doctrinal root is, I think, the cause of failure in getting through to many JWs. However, if it can be shown that belief in a second fulfillment of Daniel 4:10-17 is simply an extra-biblical and man-made theological device to give support to ecclesiastical authority, then all of the other doctrinal branches that rely on that support can be shown to be extra-biblical and man-made too. As JWs are well aware, there is a very important Scriptural rule when it comes to matters of doctrine.
"Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apollos for your good, that in our case you may learn the [rule]: 'Do not go beyond the things that are written,' in order that you may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other." [1 Corinthians 4:6]