hahaha dude that's just silly- you can't pretend like I'm close minded - it seems more like you in all honesty.You just get nasty about everything. I'm very open to these things, that's why I began the research, seeing some work and thinking, "Maybe hell isn't real..." But I go into the Greek, and clearly it's there. I'm not getting nasty about it, I'm just continuously attacked for saying whether you believe in it or not, whether it is metaphorical or literal, Jesus talks about Hell right alongside with Heaven. I don't think I lack the ability to read something written in opposition to my "superstitions" - in fact, I am always open and happy to read them because it either corrects my faith if I'm on the wrong path, or strengthens my faith if I'm on the right path. And I think I'm fair in saying that and the evidence shows for it - I use evidences to argue my points, most people use quotes and just flat out make claims that they aren't backing up. I'm sure you're capable of making a claim and backing it up, cofty, but you do it so unprofessionally and you can't do it without being nasty. So call me close minded - but I'm gonna call you a nasty person, cofty.
Poppy520
JoinedPosts by Poppy520
-
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
-
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
Vanderhoven7, you said that you confidently believe that the only place eternal torment is spoken about is in Revelation, but I literally just gave you the Greek of Matthew and, regardless if you believe it is metaphorical or not - you can't really argue that the text says, "eternal torment/punishment". You can argue if it's real, authentic, or scriptural sure - but you can't argue that the mention of eternal torment/punishment is right there in the Bible next the mention of eternal life.
-
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
Haha Xanthippe I'm not just some kid who likes to read his bible, go to sunday school, and listen in on bible studies. I am finishing up my Bachelors degree on Biblical theology - I mean I'm not saying that makes me an expert on the matter! But it certainly shows that I know what I am talking about. You're wrong in your assumptions just because I'm not a JW. You find loads of people in these comments even talking about how much they think God is evil or nonexistent - well Xanthippe, what are they doing here? They have NO right to be here! As for me, I lost a close friend recently to the false teachings of the Watchtower, and so I come on here, showing people the GREEK and the truth within the GREEK using more than one translation. I'm here to learn MORE about what JW think and what they believe - so sure, condemn me for seeking knowledge and truth and condemn me for thinking that I'm just sitting around reading an NIV. I love that I never pulled the authority card but here you are - pulling that very card and not backing up a thing you are saying. You're just being rude, straight up.
-
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
See man yes! Exactly! You DO have a moral compass! You DO know right from wrong!... because you're made in the image of God and God exists. Naturally, with God being real, you would have a moral compass wouldn't you? Because God is real, the rapist is wrong, the thief is wrong, and lying is bad. What I'm saying is how do YOU justify YOUR moral compass ABOVE someone else's moral compass. YOU say God ISN'T real - so what do you say to the man who loves to go around raping people, a serial rapist, who believes what he is doing is right? How do you tell him that he is wrong?? Because isn't that HIS truth?
-
14
“...in the name of our Lord Jesus” explanation please?
by Jules Saturn ini am looking for someone to please clear this up.
there are scriptures like in the 1 corinthians chapter 5 that refer to jesus as “our lord jesus”.
the lord is jehovah, why does that scripture in 1 corinthians refer to the lord as jesus?
-
-
Poppy520
Unfortunately, there is no Greek word for "an" or "a". When we translate to English, we have to add this into our text.
John 1:1 says in Greek, "En arche en ho Logos kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon kai Theos en ho Logos" (I'm not pretending this is off the top of my head! Haha I'm using an interlinear)
John 1:1 in English, of course, is *literally* translated, "In [the] beginning was the Word and the Word was with God (Theon) and God (Theos) was the Word."Now, at first glance this appears to say that the Word is God, that Jesus is *not the Father* but is God.... and that would be correct. Unless you add in the english "a" before Theos, it in no way, shape, or form, reads, "a god". This is a wrong insertion from the Watchtower. They believe that because John uses two different words to describe Jesus and God (even though it's two different ways of spelling the same word) that this must mean that Jesus is lesser than God, called "a god" just as God refers to false idols as "gods". The difference however, is God makes it clear to call those idols lifeless, whereas life is found in Jesus.
There is another verse in psalms 82:6,7, which says, "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other rule." - so even in this case it isn't a very happy verse. God is speaking about the judges who were given authority from God to judge. In this verse, they are called "elohim", yet, they are not said to have eternal life, unlike our Logos who was in the beginning with Theon.
Now, this argument of two different words, "Theos" being a lesser god and "Theon" being the big G-God, doesn't hold up because there are places in the Bible where our big G-God is ascribed the title of "theos". Consider Hebrews 1:-3 which says, "God (THEOS), who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the worlds;" If you actually go on the JW website and read this verse out of the NWT, the Watchtower give examples of Theos, Jehovah, speaking to the prophets in the Old Testament. Even they acknowledge that Theos is used to describe Jehovah. Through a simple word search of "Theos", you will find many instances of it in the Bible where it is used to talk about Jehovah, places where it would be silly to translate it, "a god". Consider Matthew 22:32, "I am the God (THEOS) of Abraham, the God (THEOS) of Isaac, and the God (THEOS) of Jacob? God (THEOS) is not the God (THEOS) of the dead, but of the living." Wouldn't it be silly to translate it, "I am a lesser god of Abraham, a lesser god of Isaac, and a lesser god of Jacob? A lesser god is not the lesser god of the dead, but of the living."
So we see that John 1:1 is fair to interpret the scripture as an argument for the Trinity. The Doctrine of the Trinity does NOT hold that Jesus IS the Father and IS the Holy Spirit. No, it holds that Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God - the three are separate but God, not three Gods however. Examine Matthew 28:19, "... Baptizing in the name (singular, not "names of the...") of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
Mind you, I want to say that Jesus prayed to the Father as a man, coming in the form of the Son. That is why He prayed to the Father. Also, consider Isaiah, speaking of the throne room in Isaiah 6:3, "And they were calling to one another: "Holy (1), holy (2), holy (3) is the LORD Almight; the whole earth is full of his (singular) glory." And compare it with Matthew 27:46 where Jesus says, being absent from the throne room and nailed to a cross, "... My God (1), My God (2), why have You (singular) forsaken Me?"
Jesus is Lord because He is God
Edit: I forgot! 13 years before the NWT was released, Johannes Greber released has translation of John 1:1 "a god" which he literally and explicitly says that he divined this translation from spirits through contacting them in seances. He was a psychic-medium who spoke frequently to spirits. Now, we know that mediums are demonic and that this witchcraft is CONDEMNED in the Bible, Old AND New Testaments, meaning that he was given this translation from demons against the commandments of GOD (your Jehovah). Johannes Greber, according to the Watchtower, would be called an "apostate" - yet even the Watchtower, I kid you not, sites Greber as a justification for their translation of "a god". This is all public knowledge - the Watchtower organization used a satanic, apostate reference to justify their distorting of scriptures.Also, if you read what many secular Greek language scholars have to say about the NWT, they believe it is a horrible translation and not even a translation, just a distortion and perversion of an earlier translation from someone else to push their own doctrines. Also, the Watchtower made the claim that the NWT was translated through the Holy Spirit and that it is the best translation ever to exist and that there is no need for another, yet they have released three revised versions.... so perfect, huh? -
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
Then where do you get your perception of good and evil, cofty? Is it just up to what you believe or up to what society has determined? Is there any absolute good or evil? Because if not, you have no place to really call God evil because you have nothing solid to base that opinion on. Your morals are literally made up so who are you to say that anything is bad? What if a serial killer believes that killing is a good thing - who are you to say otherwise? There are real rape cultures which believe child prostitution is a good thing - who are you to say otherwise? Because to reject, not just God, but any higher power, you have nothing left to base your morals on except personal opinion. so are you ready to tell the little girl sold into sex slavery that her rapist isn't really wrong or right? Are you ready to tell the young woman raped by a man that he, "wasn't really wrong" and justify it by saying, "well he wasn't right either". Are you ready to be philosophically consistent? I don't think so. You're just another person angry at a God you don't believe
-
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
Regardless of how you feel about God in the context of Hell, the scriptures - the Greek texts confirm that Hell is very real. "We go straight to the Scriptures - that's a bit self-righteous! Actually we go straight to the translations..." And isn't that what I did? Didn't I take the Greek and show you what the text says? Now I can't tell you why the original manuscripts weren't saved, we don't have any original manuscripts from Plato but we all accept what's written there. But as far as preserving the original texts, I can't tell why God didn't. I won't pretend like I can - however, I have shown you the Greek, you can do the research yourself and see that the Greek that has been offered is legit and the Watchtower's isn't. Regardless if it was inserted into scriptures or not - that is what is in the canon we have today, even the Watchtower includes it in theirs which is "The most accurate translation there is" (Even though they've had what, 3 revisions? explain that one, Watchtower!). They include it but they change the meaning of a Greek word which all greek scholars can agree is a fake translation.
Now, if there is no way to prove what was actually there and what has been added or removed, what are you following it for then? What is the point if we can just cherry pick - being unable to trust ANY of the scripture? If the scriptures are SO perverted, how can you trust anything in there? the fact is that you can't! I could argue every single scripture except the fragments from the 1st century. Oh there is something you don't agree with? Then take it out! Who cares? It probably isn't authentic anyway! and if I said sex before marriage is ok, but you show me a scripture saying otherwise, I can always just say, "Well that was probably added!" or make some claim about the greek being false or some outside influence. If we can't trust the scriptures then it is better to throw them away altogether! Man I wish this standard was held to the doctrines the Watchtower teaches. If you disagree with their doctrines then you're labeled an apostate and thrown out of the church to be shunned! They seem to place a LOT of trust in the scripture's authenticity.
Now, regardless if you believe God is a sadist, asshole, horrible judge or bloodthirsty God because of Hell, it's found in the scriptures that Hell exists and it's there. Cofty, I am by no means a Jehovah's Witness or a part of their cult - But if you think God is a sadist and evil, who do you think you are to judge God? Who do you think you are to deem what is evil and what is good? Under whose authority do you assert your opinions of good and evil?
Whatever my God says, I stand by it - because it is the truth. I know that He is a just God, as the scriptures tell us, and that He is righteousness. Everything He does is good and He nothing He does is evil - that is what the scriptures tell us. I don't see myself above Him and able to understand Him. I don't even begin to pretend that I know exactly how God works. All I have are the scriptures. But if God created Hell, and even if we throw out the argument that "people send themselves to Hell" and say that God sends the disobedient to Hell - He personally sends them to Hell for rejecting the offer of His love, then I call that righteous judgement and stand by it one hundred percent. -
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
Cofty - if you are not a Christian or a believer, I would like to ask you where you get your understanding of good and evil and why you are justified in those understandings. This is a popular argument because it is not possible to answer it without saying there is no good and evil which means Hitler wasn't wrong (just an example). If you believe in God but also believe that God is a sadist for allowing people to reject Him and go to hell, I would urge you to reexamine the severity of sin and how bad it actually is. Because to say it is unfair or wrong for God to allow people to go to Hell by rejecting His free gift of salvation and love, then you are saying, "We aren't really that bad! That wouldn't be justice if we went there!". The scriptures show us clearly that we are evil, disgusting creatures without Jesus. "No one is good but God" "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts" ect. You can look those up yourself. Be careful who you call evil before you check our self.
As far as the abusive husband analogy, it's more like a Father saying to his son, "You can live here, because I love you, if you are willing to obey me for your own good and love me back - but you cannot live here if you hate me and bring drugs into this house, son." If the son chooses to hate his dad and choose drugs, his dad won't let him live in his home. The son is choosing hatred and drugs, therefore he is choosing to NOT live in his dad's house. You have no place to talk about a God you have no idea about here. Your comments are just destructive and have no basis or defense - they are just you pushing what you believe to be your absolute truth with absolutely no justification for your beliefs. -
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
So should I look for Hell elsewhere? When we want to prove something - we go straight to the Scriptures. What I have shown you is that here, Jesus specifically talks about eternal life and eternal torment - whether you want to believe the watered down "Earth is hell enough" then that is up to you - but it completely distorts the reality of how bad sin really is. When you understand how bad it really is and what the cost really is, you understand how bad you are, how much you need grace, how severe Jesus' sacrifice was, and you understand the grace that's been given to you (provided of course that you believe on Jesus and all that He is). The Old Testament does not talk about Hell, nor does it talk about humans in paradise. Heaven was not open to the world yet, which is why the Jews slept (a popular theory is Abraham's bosom) because animal sacrifice only covered unintentional sin and they were still accountable for their transgressions - they were not sanctified and could not enter heaven. But when Jesus came, and He did what He did, heaven was open - and hell was no longer just for Satan and his demons but those who have rejected Christ as well. An all loving God sends those to Hell who chose to go to Hell. Also - the Bible is the Divine Word of God and Jesus says it will never pass away and the Lord says He will preserve it. The Bible makes the claim that Hell exists - and that is enough.
-
63
Hell Exists
by Poppy520 inmany people of all denominations are beginning to believe that hell does not exist - but the bible supports the claim that it does.
examine this verse, one under nkjv and the other nwt:.
nkjv - matthew 25:46, "and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.".
-
-
Poppy520
The OT talks about death as sleep because, until Jesus came to atone for the Jew's sins fully (Salvation was given to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected it, clearly found in Scripture), they could not enter heaven. Don't forget that through animal sacrifice they were only forgiven for unintentional sin and still accountable for their transgressions. If you think of it like that, then the verse about Jesus going under makes a lot more sense, because they were kind of sleeping in a way (look up Abraham's bosom, a popular teaching). But when He came, He opened heaven to us. Hell is clearly taught, I feel, even though the official Watchtower doctrine is annihilation - I think it is clear as well how they have distorted particular texts which is unarguably evident to push their doctrines which is heart breaking.