No, it wasn't. But in any case, seeing that you are the expert, one question. What killed the two witnesses? Clue: Rev. 11:7
Posts by Vidqun
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152To garyneal and Others, Evidence that the anointed remnants represented by the GB were selected in 1919.
by mankkeli in1st evidence: the release of loyal jews from exile, made possible by the fall of babylon, foreshadowed the release in 1919 of anointed christians from spiritual exile.
2nd evidence: that year marked the beginning of the period when the anointed remnants were released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion.
although having rejected such false teachings as the trinity and the immortal soul, they were still tainted by babylonish practices.
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To garyneal and Others, Evidence that the anointed remnants represented by the GB were selected in 1919.
by mankkeli in1st evidence: the release of loyal jews from exile, made possible by the fall of babylon, foreshadowed the release in 1919 of anointed christians from spiritual exile.
2nd evidence: that year marked the beginning of the period when the anointed remnants were released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion.
although having rejected such false teachings as the trinity and the immortal soul, they were still tainted by babylonish practices.
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Vidqun
Mankkeli, I still don't have an answer to my question. Is above quote up-to-date?
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To garyneal and Others, Evidence that the anointed remnants represented by the GB were selected in 1919.
by mankkeli in1st evidence: the release of loyal jews from exile, made possible by the fall of babylon, foreshadowed the release in 1919 of anointed christians from spiritual exile.
2nd evidence: that year marked the beginning of the period when the anointed remnants were released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion.
although having rejected such false teachings as the trinity and the immortal soul, they were still tainted by babylonish practices.
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Vidqun
T he public press joined the clergy in vilifying God’s people, one paper saying: “The finis of TheFinishedMystery has been given.” Nothing, though, could have been further from the truth! The two witnesses did not stay dead. We read: “And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: ‘Come on up here.’ And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.” (Revelation 11:11, 12) Thus, they had an experience similar to that of the dry bones in the valley that Ezekiel visited in vision. Jehovah breathed upon those dry bones, and they came to life, providing a picture of the rebirth of the nation of Israel after 70 years of captivity in Babylon. (Ezekiel 37:1-14) These two prophecies, in Ezekiel and in Revelation, had their striking modern-day fulfillment in 1919, when Jehovah restored his “deceased” witnesses to vibrant life.
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What a shock for those persecutors! The corpses of the two witnesses were suddenly alive and active again. It was a bitter pill for those clergymen to swallow, the more so since the Christian ministers whom they had schemed to put in prison were free again, later to be fully exonerated. The shock must have been even greater when, in September 1919, the Bible Students held a convention in Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A. Here J. F. Rutherford, recently released from prison, stirred conventioners with his talk “Announcing the Kingdom,” based on Revelation 15:2 and Isaiah 52:7. Those of the John class began once again to “prophesy,” or preach publicly. They advanced from strength to strength, fearlessly exposing Christendom’s hypocrisy.Mankkeli, sorry about the fonts, I'm still getting the hang of it. You might recognize the above as an excerpt from the Revelation Climax-book, pp. 169, 170. As you can see, Rev. 11 and the two witnesses are applied to these events. As far as I know, that is current understanding. That's why I asked.
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To garyneal and Others, Evidence that the anointed remnants represented by the GB were selected in 1919.
by mankkeli in1st evidence: the release of loyal jews from exile, made possible by the fall of babylon, foreshadowed the release in 1919 of anointed christians from spiritual exile.
2nd evidence: that year marked the beginning of the period when the anointed remnants were released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion.
although having rejected such false teachings as the trinity and the immortal soul, they were still tainted by babylonish practices.
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Vidqun
No, the question is directed at you. What scriptural proof do you have that the events you mention have any relevance? I go strictly according to the Scriptures, and I notice you did not mention any.
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152
To garyneal and Others, Evidence that the anointed remnants represented by the GB were selected in 1919.
by mankkeli in1st evidence: the release of loyal jews from exile, made possible by the fall of babylon, foreshadowed the release in 1919 of anointed christians from spiritual exile.
2nd evidence: that year marked the beginning of the period when the anointed remnants were released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion.
although having rejected such false teachings as the trinity and the immortal soul, they were still tainted by babylonish practices.
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Vidqun
In May 1918, warrants were issued for the arrest of J. F. Rutherford, the new president of the Watch Tower Society, and seven other Watch Tower associates. In June, with surprising swiftness, these Christian men were haled before a court and condemned. Seven were sentenced to 20 years in a penitentiary, and one to 10 years. Then, in 1919, an unexpected reversal of events occurred. The Great War had ended in November 1918. The sentences against the officials of the Watch Tower Society were appealed as being a miscarriage of justice. To the chagrin of their religious enemies, Rutherford and his companions were released from prison.
Mankkeli, you seem quite up to date. May I ask: What is the current understanding? Is there scriptural proof for above events?
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Outright Misrepresentations of Quotes and Citations in Watchtower Literature
by Londo111 inthe research of doug mason, annomaly, and others have been eye opening in regards to the society's recent articles on 607 bc.
what i find most disturbing is the misrepresentations of scholars, who are quoted in such a way to say one thing, when they meant something completely different.
it is one thing to teach a doctrine, and quite another to play fast and loose with the truth.
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Vidqun
Dr. M. Reisel in his monograph The Mysterious Name of Y.H.W.H., on p. 74, wrote that "[cultic] vocalisation of the Tetragrammaton must originally have been YeHuàH or YaHuàH." As such it was quoted in the Name-brochure. They conveniently left out the word "cultic" (they don't like the word) and the fact that he was referring to post-exilic pronunciation, which is quite relevant in the study of the Divine Name.
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How to silence family/elders, and not be labeled apostate, prove the 1,000 year reign understanding is false....
by EndofMysteries inmy reason for leaving or fading is because after actually reading the bible, i began to gain understanding and seeing everywhere what the bible teaches is not what jw's teach.
there is no need to bring up 'apostate' material, the history of jw's, etc, as that sets up a mental block (if you ever were a strong jw you may remember yourself it wouldn't work).
the foundation of the faith is that the bible is the final authority, the bible trumps everything, and that only jw's follow the bible everyone else twists it to their traditions and customs.
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Vidqun
Yes, Ding, I believe you're right. Flogging a dead horse, farting against thunder, come to mind. Nevertheless, I hope I'm wrong. I don't wish such a fate on my worst enemy. But, alas, what is written is written.
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How to silence family/elders, and not be labeled apostate, prove the 1,000 year reign understanding is false....
by EndofMysteries inmy reason for leaving or fading is because after actually reading the bible, i began to gain understanding and seeing everywhere what the bible teaches is not what jw's teach.
there is no need to bring up 'apostate' material, the history of jw's, etc, as that sets up a mental block (if you ever were a strong jw you may remember yourself it wouldn't work).
the foundation of the faith is that the bible is the final authority, the bible trumps everything, and that only jw's follow the bible everyone else twists it to their traditions and customs.
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Vidqun
NewChapter, here you should allow a little leeway. I believe Dan. 11:41-45 lies in the future. Two options: If Dan. 11:40 refers to the Cold War, then this passage refers to the near future. Historians agree that the Berlin Blockade of 1948 would initiate the “Cold War”. It would end with the dismantling of the Berlin Wall in 1989, leading to German reunification, formally concluded on October 3, 1990. What follows could then happen in out lifetime. Other commentators view the passage as referring to the Antichrist, i.e., far into the future. If that is the case, we might not see it unfold. The way things are happening, I put my money on the first option (see Fukuyama's quote above).
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How to silence family/elders, and not be labeled apostate, prove the 1,000 year reign understanding is false....
by EndofMysteries inmy reason for leaving or fading is because after actually reading the bible, i began to gain understanding and seeing everywhere what the bible teaches is not what jw's teach.
there is no need to bring up 'apostate' material, the history of jw's, etc, as that sets up a mental block (if you ever were a strong jw you may remember yourself it wouldn't work).
the foundation of the faith is that the bible is the final authority, the bible trumps everything, and that only jw's follow the bible everyone else twists it to their traditions and customs.
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Vidqun
Yo Designs, been there, done that. Here is some of the stuff I unearthed, for those that are interested in the topic. These phrases are called eschatological markers and this is what some had to say concerning the subject:
’acharith hayyamim = latter (part of the) days
’acharith = end, issue: spatial meaning, hind part of cow, remote sea (cf. Ps. 139:9); temporal meaning, end (of the year), in future days, outcome, result, in the end, finally. Antonym: qêdêm (= formerly).
The formulaic expression be’acharith hayyamim is generally used in the sense “time to come” (e.g., Gen. 49:1), then the “future”, and “the end of time” as we know it (e.g., Isa. 2:2; Mic. 4:1; Hos. 3:5; Ezek. 38:16; Dan. 2:28; 10:14). See TDOT, vol. VI, p. 19.
According to the editors of TWOT, “E. H. Wolff likens the Hebrew conception of time to the situation of a man rowing a boat. He sees the past as before him (qêdêm); the future is behind his back (’acharith).” The interpretation depends on the context. It is possible to use the latter for the eschaton as well as the general future because obviously all eschatology is future, but not all future is eschatology. In the majority of cases the phrase “(in) the latter part of the days” could be defined as “the end of human history as we know it” (cf. Jer. 30:24; Is. 2:2; Mic. 4:1; Ez. 38:8, 16). More specifically, in the book of Daniel: “(God in heaven) has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the ’acharith of the days (2:28). The point of the vision does not lie in the course of future events, but in the destruction of the colossus and in the coming of an indestructible kingdom (v. 44). Thus the outcome of the future is what is intended, and not the future in general. Similarly, 10:14 says: “I (the angel that had appeared) came to make you understand what is to befall your people in (at) the ’acharith of the days. For the vision is for days yet to come.” Since the following material deals with the stages of history from Cyrus to Antiochus IV, the meaning “future” cannot be excluded here; but the real purpose of the vision is to show how history will culminate, thus its outcome. Therefore, this passage has in mind the end, and not merely the future.” (TDOT, vol. I, pp. 211, 212)
Daniel asked, “what will be the final part of these things?” (cf. Dan. 12:8) The reference to “after(wards)” does not necessarily point to a chronological end, but “to show how history will culminate, thus its outcome” (TDOT, vol. I, p. 212). Such a biblical concept is not far-fetched at all. A similar view is held by political economist and author, Francis Fukuyama. In his 1992 book The End of History and the Last Man, he wrote: “What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: that is, the end point of mankind’s ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government.”
`eith qeits = end time
`eith : “time”. (Sept. 162 times kairos, 26 times houra, twice khronos). Time of judgement, time of the end (Is. 13:22 of Babel; Ez. 22:3 of Jerusalem), time of final punishment (Ez. 21:30, 34; 35:5).
qeits : “end”. The noun qes derives from the common Semitic root qtsts “cut off”, “cut to pieces”, end, temporal (period of time), 1) end (of lifetime), 2) period of time, 3) historical period, 4) eschatology, or spatial, end (edges) of earth, heavens, cf. Jer. 49:36. Antonym: ro’sh (= beginning).
Historical period : Often qeits denotes a specific span of time in the past or future. The expression `eith `äwon qeits (Ez. 21:30, 34 [25, 29]; 35:5) refers to the period of the monarchy, which ended with the destruction of Jerusalem on account of Israel’s sins. Similarly, in Dan. 9:26 the phrase weqitstsou bashshêthêph we`adh qeits milhhâmâh is to be understood as referring to a historical period of devastating wars that mark the culmination of divine judgement.
The connotation “historical period” or “age” is sometimes, as above, made explicit by association with other temporal terms: qeits par. `eith (Jer. 50:26, 27; Ez. 7:6, 7), `eith qeits (Dan. 8:17; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9); inverted qeits hâ`ittîm (Dan. 11:13; expanded: Ez. 35:5) or made manifest by added terms kî-`odh lammou`eidh (Dan. 11:35)… The phrase weyâpheiahh laqqeits in Hab. 2:3, explained by `oudh hâzoun lammou’eidh, refers to an event expected to occur in the near future kî-bo’ yâbhou’ lo’ ye’ahheir, not in an apocalyptic time frame. This historical interpretation is reflected in 1QpHab. 7:1ff. (cf. TDOT, vol. XIII, pp. 82, 83).
Time of [the] end (= [the] end time): This phrase occurs six times in the Bible and is exclusive to the book of Daniel. “The expression qes in the book of Daniel (8:17, 19; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9; cf. Hab. 2:3) clearly aims to convey a juxtaposition of the present and the eschatological future; for, although “the time of the final phase” refers primarily to the period of persecution by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, this period is also the time of tribulation that marks the opening phase of the eschaton” (TDOT, vol. XI, p. 450). Daniel had to seal the book till the “end time”. From there he would “go toward the end”, i.e., rest, and then stand up to collect his reward (cf. Dan. 12:4, 9, 13).
Eschatology : Only in a few late biblical texts does qeits occur in an eschatological context. The expression laqqeits and leqeits hayyamîn in Dnl. 12:13 clearly refer to the “end of time”. This does not mean that time will stop, but that history as we know it, will come to an end. In this context the phrase qeits happelâ’outh in verse 6 can also be interpreted eschatologically; but the meaning “appointed age” is preferable to an eschatological interpretation. The expression qeits happelâ’outh anticipates a “wonderful age,” the beginning of which is determined by preceding period of “two and a half times” (v. 7). In Ezk. 7:2-6, similarly, (haq)qeits denotes an age of destined punishment of the people (cf. vv. 7-8, qâroubh miqqâroubh); and Amos 8:2 should not be equated with the eschatological “day of Yahweh” of Amos 5:18ff. (TDOT, vol. XIII, p. 83)
Coming back to the book of Daniel, according to the angel, the big horn or fierce king, later introduced as King of the South, will stand up during the “[the] end time” (cf. Dan. 7:9, 10, 13, 14, 20, 26, 27; 8:17, 19). This King will then become involved in a final military confrontation with the King of the North, a most trying time for God’s people (cf. Dan. 11:35, 40). During this time Michael will stand up (as king), his people will escape, and [true] knowledge will become abundant as the seal on the book of Daniel is broken (Dan. 7:13, 14; 8:26; 9:24; 12:1, 4, 9). The big horn and fierce king, alias King of the South, will then be destroyed, broken without a [human] hand (cf. Dan. 7:26; 8:25b). A similar fate awaits the King of the North. He will come “all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him” (Dan. 11:45; cf. 2:44, 45).
As seen, the phrase “[the] end time” corresponds closely to “latter (part of the) days” (cf. Dan. 8:19). But according to available evidence, there appears to be a slight variation between the two. This involves duration. Whereas t he “end” (= cutting off) brings finality to the phrase “[the] end time” (emphasis on “end”, thus “conclusion”), the word ’acharith adds a continuous element to “after(wards)”, or “latter (or final) part of the days” (emphasis on “latter”, thus “future”) . In other words, “[th e] end time” will conclude with the battle of Armageddon (cf. Rev. 16:14, 16; 19:19-21), whilst the period covering the “latter part of the days” will stretch into the millennium (cf. Dan. 2:28, 44; 10:14). The relatively short “end time” should therefore be incorporated into the longer “latter part of the days” (cf. Dan. 8:19; 12:8, 9).
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How to silence family/elders, and not be labeled apostate, prove the 1,000 year reign understanding is false....
by EndofMysteries inmy reason for leaving or fading is because after actually reading the bible, i began to gain understanding and seeing everywhere what the bible teaches is not what jw's teach.
there is no need to bring up 'apostate' material, the history of jw's, etc, as that sets up a mental block (if you ever were a strong jw you may remember yourself it wouldn't work).
the foundation of the faith is that the bible is the final authority, the bible trumps everything, and that only jw's follow the bible everyone else twists it to their traditions and customs.
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Vidqun
Yo Oz, the memorial partakers amongst JWs believe they are "the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 38:8) and "the land of the Decoration" (Dan. 11:41, 45), as well as spiritual "Jerusalem" (Zech. 14:2), and "the two witnesses" (Rev. 11:3). Well, "the mountains" and the "Decoration" are going to be invaded (and occupied). "Jerusalem" is going to be pillaged, and the two witnesses are going to be killed. This means that if they are who they say they are, as an organization they will be destroyed (cf. Dan. 12:7). These will stumble, meaning they will be killed. The word for stumble in Dan. 11 means "to cause to fall". In HALOT this verb is described "to fall, collapse (of a government or dynasty) Dan. 11:14, 19, 33, 35, 41." Think about it. The GB and anointed ones will either be arrested or killed, and the Bethel houses around the world expropriated. With JWs leaderless, the preaching work will grind to a halt. If that is the case and it happens accordingly, will you then believe? Time will tell....