Posts by Vidqun

18

Analysis of the Book of Daniel

by Londo111 in

i had hoped one or two others were about to start a thread on the book of daniel, springing off from the nwt conversation, but alas, nobody has yet.

therefore, i thought i'd start one--i hope that was not too presumptuous of me.

personally, i have nothing meaty to contribute to this thread, only questions and gut feelings.

Vidqun

As far as I can work out, the point he's making, is that you either believe in the authenticity and historicity of the book, or you believe that it's a fallacy (Quirky mentioned something about eating those mushrooms in the cow pasture). In my mind, the book of Daniel is unique. Granted, a lot of editorial activity has gone into the work, but usually one can work out the true (or logical) text by comparing the MT to the versions.

Modern scholars compare it to the Animal Apocalypse and Apocalypse of Weeks of 1 Enoch and 4 Ezra, and Apocalypse of Baruch, which is unfair. These books never made the grade, not being allowed in the Jewish or Christian canon. Another question is: Did they copy the book of Daniel or did the writer of Daniel copy them? Most scholars admit that Daniel is the oldest.

But I guess it comes down to the inspiration of the Scriptures. Were they "god breathed" or a product of a Jew's fertile imagination? That each one must decide for himself. Nevertheless, I do believe that scholarly criticism does not encourage faith or belief in prophecy. It does not allow for "the benefit of the doubt" either, which is a pity. According to the law a person is only proved guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt."

This is how a modern scholar puts it: "Conservatives [that's me amongst others] have argued that the critical position rests on dogmatic, rationalistic denial of the possibility of predictive prophecy. For the critical scholar, however, the issue is is one of probability." Another place he asserts: "The prophecies of Daniel [There is a problem with their nomenclature. He should say "the pseudo-prophecies of Pseudo-Daniel] can no longer serve as christological proofs; nor can the chronological schemata serve to structure universal history...." He insists: "Daniel is not a reliable source of factual information about either the past or the future," etc.

Here I have to disagree. E.g. the Hebrew term for "latter days" is 'acharith hayyamim (cf. Dan. 2:28). According to TDOT this prophetic term, today referred to as an "eschatological marker," means "the end of history as we know it." And that's something that I, and a lot of others, are hoping for. This fits in with the rest of the Bible, the theme being God's kingdom.

18

Analysis of the Book of Daniel

by Londo111 in

i had hoped one or two others were about to start a thread on the book of daniel, springing off from the nwt conversation, but alas, nobody has yet.

therefore, i thought i'd start one--i hope that was not too presumptuous of me.

personally, i have nothing meaty to contribute to this thread, only questions and gut feelings.

Vidqun

In his Commentary on Daniel in the Hermeneia-series, Collins uses the word ex-eventu regularly, meaning that the writing under discussion is the writer’s reaction to a certain happening. However, Daniel’s writings concentrate on the future, not the past. This one sees in the arrangement of the contents. One quarter describes happenings in the life of Daniel and his friends. Three quarters contain prophecy.

This can also be determined from the book itself. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: “However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what is to occur in the final part [’acharith] of the days” [“the latter days”, KJV] (Dan. 2:28).

Later the angel Gabriel would inform Daniel: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end” [“the end time”, NAB] (Dan. 8:17b). He continued: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part [’acharith] of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end” (cf. Dan. 8:19; 11:36). The small horn or fierce king will rise “in the final part [’acharith] of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to completion” (cf. Dan. 8:23). Gabriel concluded: “And you, for your part, keep secret the vision, because it is for many days” [“it concerns the distant future”, NIV] (cf. Dan. 8:26b).

Concerning the final vision, the angel revealed: “And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part [’acharith] of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come]” [“for the vision pertains to future days”, NET] (cf. Dan. 10:14). [Cursive script added.]

A definition of prophecy is “history written in advance”. As a secretary Daniel would dutifully record the contents of the book named after him. The one that dictated it could only be Jehovah God, via the angels. How so? Because only God can accurately predict the future.

To ascertain its truthfulness, one should examine the evidence carefully and systematically. Again the angel Gabriel would elaborate: “O Daniel, now I have come forth to make you have insight with understanding” (cf. Dan. 9:22). To fully comprehend the prophecy, one needs to pray for such “insight with understanding”.

As a template of history, Daniel’s prophecy should fit events exactly. Does it? As seen, his past prophecies have come true. What about those still ahead? Here one should keep in mind that the Sovereign of the Universe has put His seal of truth on the prophecy, thus confirming its faithfulness.

Concerning the first dream, Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: “The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy” (cf. Dan. 2:45b). Later the angel would assure Daniel that the prophecy originates with God’s “book of truth” (cf. Dan. 10:1, 21 ESV).

As Lars mentioned, during the time of the end accurate knowledge will become abundant. But one will have to work hard to find it. Even then, not all will see it (cf. Dan. 12:4, 9, 10). Notwithstanding this, all of the above would be gibberish to a person who believes Daniel to be a fraudster and liar.

1

Isaiah 11

by TimothyT in

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Vidqun

Here’s a bit of personal study I did a while back on Dan. 11:40-45. Who are Ammon, Edom and Moab (Dan. 11:41), because they will escape the clutches of the King of the North. Is. 11, 45 & 49, mentioning the escapees of the nations, did come up in the mix, so here it is, for what it’s worth:

Neighbors of the anointed remnant, those in the territories neighboring “the beautiful land”, are extended an invitation: “Collect yourselves together and come. Bring yourselves up close together, YOU escapees from [or, more accurately “of”, Ber, JB, NEB] the nations. Those carrying the wood of their carved image have not come to any knowledge, neither have those praying to a god that cannot save. Make YOUR report and YOUR presentation. Yes, let them consult together in unity. Who has caused this to be heard from a long time ago? [Who] has reported it from that very time? Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me? Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth [“you peoples from all corners of the earth”, NEB], for I am God and there is no other.” (Is. 45:20-22; Ezek. 20:32; cf. 52:10b: “all the nations” = “all the ends of the earth”)

So who are these “escapees of the nations”? First clue as to their identification, we discover in Jeremiah chapter 46 to 49. Here we read of Jehovah’s adverse judgments against a variety of nations, e.g., Egypt, the Philistia, Moab, Ammon, Edom, as well as Elam.

Will these be wiped from the face of the earth? No, individuals from these nations will be saved. When will this take place? In Jer. 49:39 we read: “‘And it will certainly occur in the final part of the days that I shall gather the captive ones of Elam,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” Later, in Acts 2:9-11, Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, heard the preaching of the good news in their own language. No doubt some of them would become Christians.

In “the final part of the days”, individuals from these nations will be shown mercy. Why? The possibility exists that these nations will show hospitality to the dispersed Israelites, because Isaiah (11:11) predicts that Jehovah will “acquire the remnant of his people who will remain over from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Shinar and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.” Individuals from these nations will not only treat God’s people with respect, but will respond favorably to their preaching (cf. basis of judgment, Matt. 25:31-46).

As seen, above period includes “the time of [the] end” found only in the book of Daniel (cf. Dan. 11:40). In the very next verse we read “Edom, Moab and the beginnings of the sons of Ammon” will succeed in evading the clutches of the King of the North. Who are these? What common thread connects the three nations?

As will be demonstrated, all are somehow related to Israel. The nations of Ammon, Edom and Moab were allocated a specific territory by Jehovah God. The Israelites were not allowed to molest them. They had to bypass their territories on the way to the Promised Land (cf. Deut. 3:4, 5, 9, 18, 19). During the Davidic monarchy these were subjugated, alongside the Philistines and the Syrians (cf. 1 Chron. 18:1, 2, 5, 6, 11, 13; 19: 18, 19).

Keil & Delitzsch, in their commentary, add that these nations were off the beaten track, whereas Israel was caught in the line of fire, between the King of the North and South: “ The three peoples, Edomites, Moabites, and Ammonites, are represented as altogether spared, because, as Jerome has remarked, they lay in the interior, out of the way of the line of march of Antiochus to Egypt (v. Leng., Hitzig, and others).”

Before the issuing of Daniel’s prophecy these were immediate neighbors (and enemies) of the Israelites, the inhabitants of “the beautiful land”. In Ps. 81:15 we read: “As for those intensely hating Jehovah, they will come cringing to him,” and “their time will prove to be to time indefinite.” These could not become part of Israel unless they take up true worship. They had to accept Jehovah’s terms, bring their lives in harmony with his principles, and dedicate their lives to him.

If the information is of benefit, let me know and I will post the rest.

18

Analysis of the Book of Daniel

by Londo111 in

i had hoped one or two others were about to start a thread on the book of daniel, springing off from the nwt conversation, but alas, nobody has yet.

therefore, i thought i'd start one--i hope that was not too presumptuous of me.

personally, i have nothing meaty to contribute to this thread, only questions and gut feelings.

Vidqun

Doug, your research is impressive, but perhaps you want to widen your conclusions to include most of Christianity. The views you, as well as modern scholars and critics, are attacking do not only belong to the Watchtower. A great percentage of Christians reason along those same lines. In connection with Daniel, E. B. Pusey wrote: “The book of Daniel is especially fitted to be a battle-ground between faith and unbelief. It admits of no half-way measures. It is either Divine or an imposture…. The writer, were he not Daniel, must have lied on a frightful scale” (E. B. Pusey, Daniel the Prophet (Oxford: Parker, 1865). For those that do believe that Daniel is a fraud, Why study his book at all?

Like Lars, I do believe in the relevance of Daniel for our day, even if our views might differ. After having read Daniel through, I was convinced of the humility and sincerity of the writer, to such an extent that I take his book seriously. So, to keep the discussion positive, here’s a few pointers that helped me in my studies. Feel free to comment.

1) One should allow the Bible (HAS: especially the MT and versions) usually a reliable witness, the benefit of the doubt. E.g., over the years it has been proved that the Bible is much more dependable than historical works or secular sources. Every archaeologist worth his salt, working in the Middle East, would include the Bible amongst his references.

2) One should establish the meaning and duration of two temporal phrases, “the latter (part of the) days” and “[the] end time”. The former is found in most of the prophetic books. The latter is found only in the book of Daniel.

3) One should endeavor to stick to the well-known maxim: If the jacket does not fit, do not wear it. Look for a jacket with an exact fit. E.g., most scholars agree that these verses cannot be applied to the Seleucid dynasty, especially vv. 40 – 45. In Antiochus’ day Moab no longer existed. Antiochus made no African invasions beyond Egypt and he died at Tabae, Persia. An urgent reappraisement of the evidence is therefore called for.

4) As a Christian, one should view Daniel’s prophecies within a christological framework, i.e., how these relate to the Christ. Jesus is the second most important personage in the universe, and many a Biblical prophecy point to him as Leader and God’s appointed Messiah.

5) Last, but not least, one should carefully examine the context of the verses. E.g., most scholars seem to ignore Daniel’s worldview (German translation: Weltanschauung). Daniel was intensely occupied with the outworking of God’s purpose in relation to the military and political activities of mankind. It should also be possible then to integrate these prophecies with other Biblical prophecies.

23

True Bethel Story

by drahcir yarrum in

i arrived at bethel in december of 1968 on a cold night.

i had the taxi drop me off at the old columbia heights building.

the door was locked so i knocked and was reluctantly allowed in by another bethelite.

Vidqun

I just love the smell of napalm, I mean the Watchtower, in the morning.

83

Examples of Bias/Discrepancies in the New World Translation

by Londo111 in

to be fair, translating the bible is a huge undertaking, and in doing so, there are bound to be mistakes, or even limits to a committee's knowledge.

obviously, we cannot read the hearts of the four translators of the new world translation committee to know when they consciously or subconsciously altered renderings in to support doctrinal bias.

but more and more, i do come across things that feel askew to me.

Vidqun

Then we agree to disagree. I can assure you there is no other book, prophetic, apocalyptic, or otherwise that can compare with the book of Daniel. I do have a problem with the terminology of modern scholars and critics though. Seeing that these view Daniel as a fraud and a charlatan, they should rather speak of Pseudo-Daniel, his pseudo-prophecy, as well as his pseudo-apocalypticism.

I have read an interesting pdf dissertation by A. Y. Reed, "Body, Soul and Immortality in Hellenistic Judaism." Therein he discusses Hellenistic Judaism "reserved for those forms of Judaism that most actively absorbed, reworked and integrated ancient Greek traditions and the Hellenistic culture of the time." He sees some of these tendencies in the LXX. His dissertation concentrates on Enoch I, II, the Wisdom of Solomen, Ben Sirach and Philo.

In addition, the term "watcher" came from Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian king. The possibility exists that these Jewish apocalyptics copied the book of Daniel, and not the otherway round.

What bothers me, is that we have gone off the rails with this thread, completely off the topic. Perhaps we should continue this discussion under the Daniel-thread.

18

Analysis of the Book of Daniel

by Londo111 in

i had hoped one or two others were about to start a thread on the book of daniel, springing off from the nwt conversation, but alas, nobody has yet.

therefore, i thought i'd start one--i hope that was not too presumptuous of me.

personally, i have nothing meaty to contribute to this thread, only questions and gut feelings.

Vidqun

GL, here I prefer a christological explanation of the material. Dan. 11:22 mentions the "Leader of the covenant" which I believe to be the Christ (cf. Dan. 9:26, 27).

Exactor (of Taxes) (Dan. 11:20)

And there must stand up in his position one who is causing an exactor to pass through the splendid kingdom, and in a few days he will be broken, but not in anger nor in warfare.

???????? : Verb Qal Participle, one who is collecting taxes = a tax collector Dan. 11:20 (HALOT).

?????? : Verb Qal Perfect, an exactor of tribute (BDBLex). To collect (offerings) 2 Kings 23:35. [“ And the silver and the gold Jehoiakim gave to Pharaoh. Only he taxed the land, to give the silver at the order of Pharaoh. According to each one's individual tax rate he exacted the silver and the gold from the people of the land, to give it to Pharaoh Nechoh.”]

In the book of Daniel “stand up” often refers to a king starting his reign (cf. Dan. 8:23; 11:3, 7, 20, 21; 12:1). In A Commentary on the Book of Daniel by John J. Collins, pp. 381, 382, we read: 20.In his place will arise one: Seleucus IV Philopator (187-175 B.C.E.). His reign was dominated by financial exigency, because of the tribute to Rome.

who will make a tribute collector of royal splendor pass through : This is most probably a reference to Heliodorus, whose attempt to despoil the Jerusalem Temple is recounted in 2 Maccabees 3.

in some days he will be broken : Seleucus reigned for twelve years, but his reign is dismissed as short and inconsequential. He fell victim to a plot by Heliodorus, hence the emphasis on the secrecy of his death.

21. In his place will arise a contemptible man: The contemptible man is Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who is consistently derided in Daniel, etc.

Keil & Delitzsch found it hard to place the verse in such a historical setting. They gave the following reasons for their misgivings: “Finally, of his successor, Seleucus Philopator, to whom v. 20 must refer, if the foregoing verses treat of Antiochus the Great, nothing further is communicated, than that he quum paternis cladibus fractas admodum Syriae opes accepisset, post otiosum nullisque admodum rebus gestis nobilitatum annorum duodecim regnum, was put to death through the treachery of Heliodorus, unius ex purpuratis (Liv. xli. 19, cf. App. Syr. c. 45), and the mission of Heliodorus to Jerusalem to seize the treasures of the temple, which is fabulously described in 2 Macc. 3:4ff. The ????????? (shall be destroyed) of this king ????????? ???????? (within few days) does not harmonize with the fact of his twelve years’ reign.

Thus, Dan. 11:20, mentions an exactor (of taxes, cf. 2 Kings 23:35) that will pass through the splendid kingdom, taking the place of the King of the North. As an alternative interpretation, we look to Caesar Augustus, enrolling the people. During this time Jesus would be born in Bethlehem (cf. Luk. 2:1-5).

Above explanation is in harmony with the facts. The Roman Empire would flourish under the reign of Caesar Augustus. He would order the registration of “all the inhabited earth” for tax purposes as well as military conscription (cf. Luke 2:1). Augustus will then be broken, “but not in anger nor in warfare”. He would die of illness. His successor, “one to be despised”, would take over the kingdom “by means of smoothness” (cf. Dan. 11:20, 21).

“Tiberius,” says TheNewEncyclopædiaBritannica, “played politics with the Senate and did not allow it to name him emperor for almost a month [after Augustus died].” He told the Senate that no one but Augustus was capable of carrying the burden of ruling the Roman Empire and asked the senators to restore the republic by entrusting such authority to a group of men rather than to one man.

“Not daring to take him at his word,” wrote historian Will Durant, “the Senate exchanged bows with him until at last he accepted power.” Durant added: “The play was well acted on both sides. Tiberius wanted the principate, or he would have found some way to evade it; the Senate feared and hated him, but shrank from re-establishing a republic based, like the old, upon theoretically sovereign assemblies.” Thus, in a crafty way Tiberius would take hold of the Roman Empire by means of smoothness .

83

Examples of Bias/Discrepancies in the New World Translation

by Londo111 in

to be fair, translating the bible is a huge undertaking, and in doing so, there are bound to be mistakes, or even limits to a committee's knowledge.

obviously, we cannot read the hearts of the four translators of the new world translation committee to know when they consciously or subconsciously altered renderings in to support doctrinal bias.

but more and more, i do come across things that feel askew to me.

Vidqun

Leolaia, in the Introduction to Maccabees, the editors of the Jerusalem Bible [p. 656] says: “The book is important for its affirmation of the resurrection of the dead, see note to [2 Macc.] 7:9; 14:46; sanctions in the afterlife, prayer for the dead, 12:41-46f and note; the spiritual fruits of martyrdom, 6:18-7:41; the intercession of the saints, 15:12-16 and note.”

7:9 With his last breath he exclaimed, ‘Inhuman fiend, you may discharge us from the present life, but the King of the world will raise us up, since it is for his laws we die, to live again forever.’

Note: Belief in the resurrection of the body, not clearly expressed in Is. 26:19 and Jb 19:26-27 is here asserted for the first time, vv. 9, 11, 14, 23, 29, 36, and in Dn 12:2-3… Cf. also 2 Macc 12:38-45+; 14:46. By the power of the Creator the martyrs will rise again, v. 23, to a life, v. 14, cf. Jn. 5:29, which is eternal, vv. 9, 36. At this point we encounter the doctrine of immortality which will be developed in the atmosphere of Greek thought and without reference to the resurrection of the body, by Ws 3:1-5:16, etc.

I believe that there exists a huge chasm between the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul. The latter was introduced by the Greeks. There is no mention of it in early Jewish writings. Consequently, the book of Daniel dates to a much earlier period than the Maccabees or Ben Sirach.

Another reason for my early dating of Daniel is his use of the Tetragrammaton (Dan. 9). Here a lot of editorial activity was involved (much later). Then there is the Aramaic portions of the book. Most scholars believe it to be Reichsaramaic or Official Aramaic. Where would a Maccabean Jew pick up Official Aramaic?

83

Examples of Bias/Discrepancies in the New World Translation

by Londo111 in

to be fair, translating the bible is a huge undertaking, and in doing so, there are bound to be mistakes, or even limits to a committee's knowledge.

obviously, we cannot read the hearts of the four translators of the new world translation committee to know when they consciously or subconsciously altered renderings in to support doctrinal bias.

but more and more, i do come across things that feel askew to me.

Vidqun

This is one of the reasons why I believe that Dan. 12 indicates an early date for the book of Daniel. Under Greek influence later Jews would have adopted the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. However, Daniel confirms his belief in both the resurrection and the book of life. Some will outlive the tribulation, others will lose their lives in the persecution, later to rise from the dead (cf. Dan. 12:2, 13). Keil & Delitzsch surmise that the book of life contains a list of the citizens of the Messianic kingdom (cf. Ex. 32:32; Is. 4:3; Mal. 3:16; Phil. 4:3). Daniel’s name would feature prominently in this book. At “the end of the days”, he will be remembered and stand up to be rewarded for his faithfulness (cf. Dan. 12:9, 13).

22

How Dangerous Is Putin?

by scotoma in

jw
friends

russia is facing the same dilemma that the dictators in the middle east have been facing.. in the middle east the leaders have tried to kill or at least beat up demonstrators.

this hasn't worked.. putin has been watching this and he has been opposed to the west getting involved.

he no doubt knows what the consequences.

Vidqun

This is my analysis, granted, with a prophetic bent. You can laugh it off, or you can take note. Time will tell:

The iron legs of the image of Daniel 2 end in a mirror image of feet and toes of iron, mixed with clay. This is an indication that the leadership of both iron and clay component would be a dual entity. Here we take a cue from Josephus, finding significance in the duality of the silver shoulders, arms, and hands, which would constitute the dual empire of the Medes and the Persians (cf. Dan. 2:39; Josephus, Antiquities 10.10.4 §208).

As seen, the clay component points to the democratic Anglo-American world power. History informs us that early in this partnership the British would dominate. After the two World Wars the Americans would take the lead.

Like the composite Anglo-American power, making up the King of the South, the final form of the King of the North would also be a dual power, consisting of Russia and the People’s Republic of China. Both are autocratic nuclear nations with a communistic background and highly regulated economy (contrast this to the “free economies” of the West).

As seen, the iron of the composite image of Dan. 2, signify strength as well as hardness, shattering all opposition and dissent. The feet and toes are “partly of molded clay of a potter and partly iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it” (cf. Dan. 2:40, 41).

The USSR, behind its “iron curtain”, used to be the senior partner, with the People’s Republic of China, behind its “bamboo curtain”, acting as the silent partner. But contrary to current opinion, it was actually direct Chinese participation, and to a lesser extent Russian involvement (with the help of military advisors), that would successfully repulse the King of the South in Korea, and Vietnam.

Today their roles are reversed. Russia would take the back seat, while China would become the dominant partner. This new King of the North would act effectively because of two merging thought processes: 1) Lateral and diffuse (“spider web”) Chinese thinking; 2) Strategic (“chess master”) Russian thinking, a very dangerous combination indeed!

For the past 30 years, Chinese leaders have been following Deng Xiaoping’s strategy of tao guang yang hui, caution being their watchword. They avoid the limelight, prefer listening to speaking, and try their best to be humble. And now that they are thrust into the spotlight, China’s leaders are going about the job in a workmanlike fashion. Unlike their predecessors, the current generation does not make grand geopolitical gestures. When they travel abroad, it is strictly business.

The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has emerged as a dark horse. Who controls China’s arsenal, the politicians or the military? Fact of the matter is: China’s nine-man Politburo Standing Committee, the nation’s top political body, is staffed with technocrats, and has no military representative. The Americans would coin the phrase “the Chinese civilian-military disconnect”.

Nevertheless, the motto of the King of the North would remain: Lateral thinking and strategic diffusion in plain sight. Especially the Chinese have allowed their people to diffuse into most countries and communities. Bright young students are sent to study the world over. They are encouraged to stay and “put down roots” (e.g., Australia). A nation of “sleepers” to be activated when their master calls. Against such a powerful juggernaut the unsuspecting King of the South will have no chance at all. He will be caught napping and lose all his valuables.

With the dragon being the national symbol of the Chinese, Satan the great Dragon, would be ready to assist them in their quest (cf. Rev. 13:4). They will conquer the West without firing a single shot.