Vidqun

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Posts by Vidqun

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  47

  The 1919 Date

  by turtleturtle in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  can someone please give me a neutral explanation of the date 1919?

  can the wt prove 1919 from the bible?

  what about this quote?

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  Vidqun

  I with jwfacts here. On my wishlist: They must please explain how 3 1/2 days = 9 months.
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  47

  The 1919 Date

  by turtleturtle in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  can someone please give me a neutral explanation of the date 1919?

  can the wt prove 1919 from the bible?

  what about this quote?

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  Vidqun

  Cedars, I tried to refute their interpretation, based on above table, by the following:

  1) Trumpet blasts

  According the the Revelation Climax-book:

  1 st trumpet blast: Hail and fire (earth) 1922

  2 nd trumpet blast: Blood (sea) 1923

  3 rd trumpet blast: Wormwood (fountains) 1 924

  4 th trumpet blast: Eclipsed son (heavens) 1925

  5 th trumpet blast: Literature/Preaching

  First woe (locusts) 1926-

  Second woe (cavalry)

  6 th trumpet blast: Altar measured, trampling of court= 1914-1918

  2 witnesses 1919

  7 th trumpet blast: Kingdom to become the Lord’s 1914

  and his Christ’s

  Refutation : Successive trumpet blasts indicate sequence. By using their interpretation the sequence is clearly broken. With the 7 th and last trumpet blast they are back to 1914, which is improbable to say the least.

  2) Beast ascending out of the abyss

  According to the Revelation Climax-book, “the beast ascending out of the abyss” = “the beast ascending out of the sea” (Rev. 11:7 ; 13:1). They go to great lengths “proving” this by invoking Hebrew and Greek.

  Later on “the beast ascending out of the abyss” is identified as the League of Nations/United Nations (cf. Rev. 17:8).

  This is dishonest scholarship, attempting to conform the text of the Bible to fit faulty doctrine.

  For pointing this out, amongst other things, I was classified as an apostate.
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  112

  Are They Cynically Shutting Down The Organization?

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've raised this idea before but recent events seem to support it.

  changes in the watchtower may be guided by more than a need for cash flow: they may simply be liquidating/shutting it down as discreetly as possible.. of course, this doesn't mean they stop working on their upstate ny country club - but it could mean that the throrough going exposure and disproof of their beliefs on the internet, when it emerged, took many of them by surprize, as it did many of us!

  after awhile, they generally gave up trying to make any sense of their doctrines - and coupled with cash flow issues - moved towards a quiet retreat.. take a look at a few things:.

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  Vidqun

  There is a trend here. Please watch The Dictator by Sacha Baron Cohen, then it all will become clear to you.
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  26

  Interesting quotes from the Feb 15th Watchtower (it's not a cult at all, honest!)...

  by cedars in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well it's the 15th today, so i thought i'd check to see whether the feb 15th watchtower has been uploaded yet... and sure enough it has.. here is the link to the pdf.... http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/5a/w_e_20130215.pdf.

  i've breezed through it and noticed that it is littered with odd stuff that would scream "cult!

  " to an outsider, but which your average indoctrinated jw will just lap up as always.. here is my pick of the quotes.... the first article, entitled "this is our spiritual heritage" gives a very flattering whistle-stop tour of the history of god's organization - from abraham to tynedale to rutherford (bypassing russell altogether) before explaining that nothing will ever thwart jehovah's purposes.

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  Vidqun

  Cedars, welcome back! In connection with Zech. 14:1-5, the article’s source, Paradise Restored to Mankind - By Theocracy!, says the day coming “belonging to Jehovah” (v. 1) would end in Armageddon. Now for the double back manoeuvre. The attack on Jerusalem (v. 2) had occurred in 1918 (pp. 370, 371), the split of the mount of Olives (v. 3) took place in 1914, and the flight to “the valley” (v. 4) started in the spring of 1919 CE (p. 379). Only the anointed remnant are involved. This is what I would call hopscotch-chronology. If those verses are viewed as a unit, then they should worry. It says “Jerusalem” will be captured, with half of its occupants going into exile. That will be the day!
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  21

  Must See! Annual Report Summary Directly From JW.ORG

  by turtleturtle in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/.

  november 9, 2012 | events & activities.

  annual meeting reportfood at the proper timean audience of thousands listened to encouraging reports and an exciting discussion of matthew 24:45-47 at the 128th annual meeting of the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania.. .

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  Vidqun

  I wonder how many times they viewed the sign language "masturbation" video? Did they get kicks out of it? Did they think it would be appropriate for kids to watch? 70x How embarressing!
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  21

  Must See! Annual Report Summary Directly From JW.ORG

  by turtleturtle in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://www.jw.org/en/news/events-activities/annual-meeting-report-2012/.

  november 9, 2012 | events & activities.

  annual meeting reportfood at the proper timean audience of thousands listened to encouraging reports and an exciting discussion of matthew 24:45-47 at the 128th annual meeting of the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania.. .

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  Vidqun

  I wonder why they did not refer to the next four verses (Matt. 24:48-51)? Perhaps they hit a little too close to home?
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  29

  What happened in the Christian Congregation immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem?

  by itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  what exactly happened in the christian congregation immediately following the destruction of jerusalem?

  what were the central issues being dealt with at the time?

  was there a crises akin to what happened to jws when they weren't all raptured in 1914?.

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  Vidqun

  I was also interested in the state of Christianity after the destruction of Jerusalem. The following is taken from Adolf von Harnack's treatise The Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries. I have great respect for German scholarship. Only problem with it, it is quite old (1925), but insightful in that it indicates that not many sources outside the Bible, i.e., the NT, exist that sheds light on that critical time. He tried to piece things together with what he had. Overall, he concentrated on later periods in the development of Christianity. I am still working though the two volumes, but will let you know if I discover anything interesting. In hindsight one can see that the scattering of the early Christians did help in spreading the Christian message to surrounding towns and areas.

  The testimonies collected under §§ 1–4, 6–9, and 11 represent the original and ancient conception of the rapid spread of the gospel over all the world. They tell us hardly anything about its actual spread, though they certainly bear witness to its energetic character, and to the fact that the gospel had already reached barbarians, Greeks, and Latins in the course of its diffusion throughout the empire.

  § 3 (Matt. 24:14) contains the general theory of the mission, which is put into the lips of Jesus: “the gospel has to be preached to all the world for a testimony to the heathen. Then comes the end.” The eschatological picture drawn by the author of the Apocalypse (§ 6, Apoc. 7:9) corresponds to this.

  The passages from Paul (1 Thess. 1:8; Rom. 1:8, 15:19 f.; Col. 1:6, 23) are deliberate rhetorical exaggerations; so in § 4 (Acts 17:6).

  The passages in § 7 (Matt. 24:9, 28:19; Mark 16:20; Acts 1:8; Preaching of Peter) and § 2 (1 Tim. 3:16, quotation from a hymn) affirm that the disciples of Jesus, or the apostles, received a commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all men, and that they discharged this commission. This belief, that the original apostles had already preached the gospel to the whole world, is therefore extremely old; nor, even supposing that Matt. 28:19 is taken as an interpolation, need it be put later than c. 90 a.d. (cp. Acts 1:8). The belief would never have arisen unless some definite knowledge of the apostles’ labours and whereabouts (i.e., in the majority of cases) had been current. Both Clemens Romanus (§ 8) and Ignatius (§ 9) assume that the gospel has already been diffused all over the world, the former speaking, with rhetorical exaggeration, of Paul as the missionary who had taught all the world. Finally, as the conception emerges in Hermas (§ 11), it is exceptionally clear and definite; and this evidence of Hermas is all the more weighty, as he may invariably be assumed to voice opinions which were widely spread and commonly received. On earth, as he puts it, there are twelve great peoples, and the gospel has already been preached to them all by the apostles.

  The actual expansion of the gospel during the first Century must be deduced from the writings of the New Testament and the earliest extra-canonical literature. With regard to the intensity of its spread, we possess no evidence beyond that of the passages cited under § 5 (Acts 21:20) and § 10 (Pliny). These passages, however, are of extreme importance. The former testifies that among the Palestinian Jews, at the time of Paul’s last visit to Jerusalem (i.e., during the sixth decade), Christians were already to be found in tens of thousands. The latter passage yields even richer spoil. It sketches the compass and consequences of the Christian propaganda in Bithynia and Pontus during the reign of Trajan; it depicts an activity which astounds us and which might dispose us to question Pliny’s statements—particularly as he had good reasons for exaggerating the movement, in order to dissuade the emperor from taking any wholesale, bloody measures for its repression. Still, the main points of the governor’s tale must be correct, and they are quite enough to justify the opinion that exceptionally strong currents were already flowing in these provinces which told in favour of a religion like Christianity (see below, Sect. III. § 9 in the third chapter of this Book).

  As the statements of Justin (§ 12) and the author of the epistle to Diognetus (§ 14) upon the diffusion of Christianity are mainly due to the theoretical belief that the gospel must have already spread all over the earth, they are of no value, although the evidence of Dial. cxvii. may perhaps be based on some knowledge of the nomadic Arabs having already been reached by the message of Christianity. Justin, as a native of Samaria, might quite well know something about these tribes. In any case, the other notice is of some importance, viz., that by the age of Justin the Gentile Christians already outnumbered the Jewish Christians. Still more significant, of course, is the statement of pseudo-Clemens (Soter), writing about fifteen years later, to the effect that the Christians were more numerous than the Jews (§ 13). For, even if this notice represents a purely subjective estimate, even if it applies in the first instance only to the special circle which the author had in view (i.e., Rome), still it must remain an illuminating fact that a prominent Roman Christian, circa 170 a.d. , was under the impression that the Christians were already superior numerically to the Jews.

  The language employed by Celsus (§ 15) serves as a welcome corrective of the Christian exaggerations. True, Celsus also exaggerates. But he exaggerates in an opposite direction. He makes out as if Christianity were already in extremis owing to the rigour of the imperial regulations under Marcus Aurelius. This, of course, is not worth serious discussion. Nevertheless, the mere fact that he could give vent to such an idea, proves that there was no question as yet of enormous crowds of Christians throughout the empire.

  The general theory, that the church had already spread all over the world, also underlies the assertions of Irenæus (§ 17) and Clement of Alexandria (§ 18). Nevertheless, the statements of the latter author deserve consideration, for he met with many people from various quarters, and he testifies, moreover, that “not a few” philosophers had betaken themselves to Christianity. The remarks of Irenæus, again, have some weight as regards the churches in Germany and among the Celts at any rate—however worthless they may be as regards Iberia, etc. On the former churches Irenæus could speak from personal knowledge, and it is they who are meant in his allusions to barbarian tribes who possessed true Christianity, although they had not the scriptures in their own language. [1]

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  [1] von Harnack, A. (1908). The Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries, Volume 2 (J. Moffatt, Ed.) (Second, Enlarged and Revised Edition). Theological Translation Library (23–26). London; New York: Williams and Norgate; G. P. Putnam’s Sons.
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  67

  Question?

  by Ethos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  first of all i'd like to apologize on behalf of my "college dropout" thread.

  i intimated it as a humorous and somewhat true form of sattire.

  i didn't think people here would take it so seriously and literally.

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  Vidqun

  Ethos, I am surprised that you cannot fathom why most on this forum reacted adversely to your "Harvard"-satire. This is exactly the tripe your Bosses are spewing concerning secular education. At the assemblies we often hear how bad tersiary education is. But during announcements we must hear that Bethel needs registered nurses, doctors, dentists, etc. The R&F should not even consider tersiary education, while Bethel sends young brothers to university to become engineers, lawyers, etc.

  Or brother elder stands in front of the congregation, telling a young brother who wanted to become a computer programmer to pioneer. To support himself he should refurbish and sell old microwaves. Don't you think that is somewhat silly and hypocritical, especially in the recessionay times we are living in? Or is it that the members of the GB are the only ones that should use their thinking ability, the rest must follow blindly? Do you not see something seriously wrong with the above? What did Jesus say about the blind leading the blind?
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  73

  A letter from a College Dropout

  by Ethos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear harvard university,.

  i have decided go leave this institution of education.

  let me explain why.

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  Vidqun

  Phizzy, I dare say, old chap, you know, theocratic warfare and all that. Apologist-trolls just love to throw their names away.
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  73

  A letter from a College Dropout

  by Ethos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear harvard university,.

  i have decided go leave this institution of education.

  let me explain why.

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  Vidqun

  My years at University were the best years of my life. In hindsight, I was religiously minded, and my professors were extremely tolerant, indeed more tolerant than the Watchtower, which allows no dissent or alternative views. And, Ethos, please remember to put it on your CV if and when you drop out of University. Your prospective employer will be impressed.