Here's a few thoughts on the days and times according to context, for those that are interested in the subject. Most of these point to the future. Days, Times, Weeks and Seasons in the Book of Daniel Jehovah God is the great Timekeeper. As ultimate Lawgiver and Judge, he, and only he, can change the times and seasons (Gen. 1:14; 8:22; Dan. 2:21; cf. Dan. 7:25). He has instituted the Heptad Cycle, which is evident in all his handiwork, e.g. the six creative “days,” concluding with His seventh rest period. The lives of his people would be governed by a seven day week, ending with the Sabbath observance (cf. Gen. 2:2-4; Ex. 20:8-10). All the days, times and weeks of Daniel are connected to a half or full Heptad Cycle. 7 times NWT Daniel 4:16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it. This temporal phrase is repeated four times in Chapter 4 (vv. 16, 23, 25, 32), emphasizing its importance. In all likelihood, seven years would pass until Nebuchadnezzar would be reinstated. This is its primary fulfillment. Time, times and half a time NWT Daniel 7:25 And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time [1 + 2 + ½ = 3 ½ times (3 ½ years)]. Under the auspices of the big horn, God’s people will be intensely persecuted for a period of three and a half years. They will actually be under his control for the duration of this time. Afterwards the beast will be disposed of, and rulership will be handed over to “the holy ones of the Supreme one” (cf. Dan. 7:26, 27). 2300 evenings [and] mornings NWT Daniel 8:14 So he said to me, Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings [= 6 years and 4 months]; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition. Under the auspices of the small horn or fierce king, control of an army would be relinquished. The constant feature will be “given over” in order for it to be trampled alongside the army (cf. Dan. 8:12, 13). This period will be just over six years in length. Six is an imperfect number, falling short of seven years by more than 7 months (cf. Rev. 13:18). The horn will then be disposed of by “the Prince of princes” (cf. Dan. 8:25). Seventy sevens NWT Daniel 9:24 There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. For this phrase to be synchronized with the appearance of the Messiah (Hebrew), otherwise known as the Christ (Greek), it will have to be adjusted to seventy weeks (of years): 70 weeks x 7 = 490 years (cf. Dan. 9:24, 26). Appointed time, appointed times, and a half NWT Daniel 12:7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite, It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half [3 ½ appointed years]. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish. This appointed period of persecution, lasting three and a half years, has been fixed under oath. The persecution, coming from both the King of the North, and his followers, and the King of the South, and his allies, will last until the hand (or power) of God’s people has been completely shattered. Interestingly, this consists again of half of a seven year cycle. 1290 days NWT Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. After the constant feature has been removed, “a disgusting thing of desolation” would be placed in a unique way for it to fulfill its final purpose (cf. Dan. 8:11, 12; Rev. 18:15-17). This period would last 1290 days. 1335 days NWT Daniel 12:12 Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days! Indeed, happy are those that survive the great tribulation (cf. Matt. 5:5; 25:21, 23, 34; Rev. 7:9, 10). This period will last 1335 days. 2625 days Sum total of above two periods (1290 + 1335) = 2625 days, exceeds a full seven year cycle (= 2520 days). Conclusion: After a seven year cycle, God would have completed the clean-up. This would initiate the next seven year cycle of burying the dead and clearing the debris (cf. Ezek. 38:9, 13).
Posts by Vidqun
-
18Some thoughts on the 'days' of Daniel 12
by Splash in1260 days (dan 12:7).
1335 days (dan 12:12).
1260 days (dan 12:7).
-
-
-
61
Is There (Was There Ever) an Anglo American Dual World Power?
by BluesBrother inif you live in the u s a or the united kingdom, this is how the wt society views your government, your nation :-.
yes, as an ugly, evil terrifying beast !
this is based on the book of revelation chapter 13 , quoted as follows in the revelation climax book.
-
-
Vidqun
Except when there is a war to be fought for self-interest. The is US to go in and the UK follows close at his heels. And interestingly, one power block would oppose them, with Russia and China taking the lead. Just follow the decisions of the Security Council of the UN. Whatever you want to call it, they stand together in times of war.
-
61
Is There (Was There Ever) an Anglo American Dual World Power?
by BluesBrother inif you live in the u s a or the united kingdom, this is how the wt society views your government, your nation :-.
yes, as an ugly, evil terrifying beast !
this is based on the book of revelation chapter 13 , quoted as follows in the revelation climax book.
-
-
Vidqun
Gopher, go back a few hundred years. Then Britain ruled the world and America was a colony. Now it is the other way round. As above article brings out, the World Wars, especially W.W. II made them blood brothers.
-
61
Is There (Was There Ever) an Anglo American Dual World Power?
by BluesBrother inif you live in the u s a or the united kingdom, this is how the wt society views your government, your nation :-.
yes, as an ugly, evil terrifying beast !
this is based on the book of revelation chapter 13 , quoted as follows in the revelation climax book.
-
-
Vidqun
An alliance the world can count on
By Barack Obama and David Cameron, Tuesday, March 13, 2:01 AM
Barack Obama is president of the United States. David Cameron is prime minister of Great Britain.
Seven decades ago, as our forces began to turn the tide of World War II, Prime Minister Winston Churchill traveled to Washington to coordinate our joint efforts. Our victories on the battlefield proved “what can be achieved by British and Americans working together heart and hand,” he said. “In fact, one might almost feel that if they could keep it up, there is hardly anything they could not do, either in the field of war or in the not less tangled problems of peace.”
Keep it up we have — not only winning that war for our survival but also building the institutions that undergird international peace and security. The alliance between the United States and Great Britain is a partnership of the heart, bound by the history, traditions and values we share. But what makes our relationship special — a unique and essential asset — is that we join hands across so many endeavors. Put simply, we count on each other and the world counts on our alliance.
As leading world economies, we are coordinating closely with our G-8 and G-20 partners to put people back to work, sustain the global recovery, stand with our European friends as they resolve their debt crisis and curb the reckless financial practices that have cost our taxpayers dearly. We’re committed to expanding the trade and investment that support millions of jobs in our two countries.
As the two largest contributors to the international mission in Afghanistan, we’re proud of the progress our troops have made in dismantling al-Qaeda, breaking the Taliban’s momentum and training Afghan forces. But as recent events underscore, this remains a difficult mission. We honor the profound sacrifices of our forces, and in their name we’ll carry on the mission.
Over the next few days, we will consult about preparations for the NATO summit in Chicago, where our alliance will determine the next phase of the transition that we agreed to in Lisbon. This includes shifting to a support role in advance of Afghans taking full responsibility for security in 2014 and ensuring that NATO maintains an enduring commitment so that Afghanistan is never again a haven for al-Qaeda to launch attacks against our citizens.
As members of the international community, we have been united in imposing tough sanctions on the Iranian regime for failing to meet its international obligations. We believe there is time and space to pursue a diplomatic solution, and we are coordinating our diplomatic approach with China, France, Germany and Russia, our P5+1 partners. Meanwhile, as the United States imposes its strongest sanctions to date and the European Union prepares to impose an embargo on Iranian oil, the choice for Tehran will be sharpened — meet your international obligations or face the consequences.
As two nations that support the human rights and dignity of all people, we continue to stand with those brave citizens across the Middle East and North Africa who are demanding their universal rights. Having joined in the mission to protect the Libyan people last year, we support Libyan efforts to build democratic institutions and hold free and fair elections this year. We condemn the Syrian regime’s horrific violence against innocent civilians, and we are focused on the urgent humanitarian task of getting food and medicine to those in need. With our international partners, we’ll continue to tighten the noose around Bashar al-Assad and his cohorts, and we’ll work with the opposition and the United Nations-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan to plan for the transition that will follow Assad’s departure from power.
As two of the world’s wealthiest nations, we embrace our responsibility as leaders in the development that enables people to live in dignity, health and prosperity. Even as we redouble our efforts to save lives in Somalia, we’re investing in agriculture to promote food security across the developing world. We’re working to improve maternal health and end preventable deaths of children. With a renewed commitment to the lifesaving work of the Global Fund for AIDS, TB and Malaria, we see the beginning of the end of the AIDS pandemic. Through our Open Government Partner Partnership, we’re striving to make governments more transparent and accountable.
Finally, as two peoples who live free because of the sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, we’re working together like never before to care for them when they come home. With new long-term collaborations to help our wounded warriors recover, assist in veterans’ transition back to civilian life and support military families, we recognize that our obligations to troops and veterans endure long after today’s battles end.
Our troops and citizens have long shown what can be achieved when British and Americans work together, heart and hand, and why this remains an essential relationship — to our nations and the world. So like generations before us, we’re going to keep it up. Because with confidence in our cause and faith in each other, we still believe that there is hardly anything we cannot do.
-
60
what ever happened to the king of the north and king of south?
by nowwhat? inafter the daniel book came out, nothing has ben said about it in at least 10 years.
did that prohecy get thrown out the window when the soviet union fell?.
-
-
Vidqun
Jeffro, this is what interpretation is all about. I work from the assumption that God is responsible for the Bible, and that he would leave us a map to navigate past the obstacles of the end times. My method includes progressive word studies in the original languages, for what it's worth. In a perfect world one's interpretation would have been evidence-led and/or evidence-driven. But because of huge gaps in our knowledge and limited resources, one must make do with what you have. Unfortunately the topic is subjective to the extreme, but historical reality would add an objective element to the mix. In the end time will tell whether one's interpretation is to stand or fall.
In connection with distortians of the seventy week prophecy, I believe the opposite. The prophecy was so accurate in pointing to Jesus as the Messiah, that the Jews had to change the punctuation of Dan. 9, to break up the weeks (cf. MT to LXX). I believe it to be one of the most effective of the Messianic prophecies, in the same league as the suffering servant of Is. 53.
Bobcat, I have Holladay's Lexicon on BibleWorks and Logos. It is based on Koehler and Baumgartner's Lexicon (HALOT). TDOT is a fifteen volume set, translated from German. What Kittel is for NT Studies, TDOT is for OT Studies, just more recent. The last of the volumes were only recently completed. It is not available online or on Logos or BibleWorks. Some of the volumes one can access through Google books, but only selective articles. Before I owned the set, I was forced to access the volumes through Academic (Theological) Libraries. Now I have the complete set. If you PM me an e-mail address, I will send you some of my studies (in PDF book form). Especially the one on Dan. 11:40-45 you will find interesting. A warning, rather not discuss any of it with JWs. Because of it I was disfellowshipped.
Andrekish, Daniel is one of my favorite hobbyhorses, and I find a lot of pleasure in studying it, which would make me a bit of a wierdo. As I have said, I believe God is the origin of the Bible, directly or indirectly, so he would leave us a guide to get us through the end times in one piece.
Mr Freeze, I will go with the communist combination of Russia-China, both nuclear world powers and economically powerful. I had my doubts until I read When China Rules the World. The End of the Western World and the Birth of a New Word Order, by Martin Jacques. Now there is no doubt in my mind what lies ahead.
-
60
what ever happened to the king of the north and king of south?
by nowwhat? inafter the daniel book came out, nothing has ben said about it in at least 10 years.
did that prohecy get thrown out the window when the soviet union fell?.
-
-
Vidqun
Bobcat, again a few observations for what they are worth. The first part is a repetition of my post in a previous thread because I think it is important.
Modern scholars study the book of Daniel in fragmentary form. I personally view the book as a unit and study it as such. Daniel 11&12 covers a period from the time of Darius the Mede (Dan. 11:1) to the resurrection (Dan. 12:2). Few modern scholars would acknowledge the fact. In sharp contrast to the book of the Maccabees, Daniel makes no direct mention of Hellenistic Reform, and the angel delivering the final vision, actually dooms a Jewish uprising (cf. Dan. 11:14).
A few conservative scholars view Dan. 11:40-45 as referring to the time of the Antichrist. In addition, Jesus Christ would reject the Maccabean interpretation of "the disgusting thing causing desolation." As a first fulfillment, he applied it to the Romans, not the Seleucid kings (cf. Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luk. 21:20, 21).
*
The book of Daniel concentrates on dynasties and not individuals.
Dan. 2 : Head of Gold, Nebuchadnezzar > Babylonian dynasty, etc.
Dan. 7 : Beasts > dynasties
Dan. 8 : Ram > Medo-Persia; He-goat > Greece.
Dan. 11 > Seleucids/Ptolemies (dynasties), with individual kings and their actions highlighted:
In the first half of the prophecy mention is made of only three kings of the north (one in vv. 5–9; his sons, vv. 10–12; a third, vv. 13–19) and three kings of the south (the first, vv. 5 and 6; the “branch,” vv. 7–9; and the king, vv. 10–15), distinctly different, whereby of the former, the relation of the sons (v. 10) to the king indefinitely mentioned in v. 11, is admitted, and of the latter the kings of the south, it remains doubtful whether he who is spoken of in vv. 9–15 is different from or is identical with “the branch of her roots” (v. 7).
Above shows that the prophecy does not concentrate on individual historical personages, but only places in view the king of the south and the king of the north as representatives of the power of these two kingdoms. Of these kings special deeds and undertakings are indeed mentioned, which point to definite persons; e.g., of the king of the north, that he was one of the princes of the king of the south, and founded a greater dominion than his (v. 5); the marriage of the daughter of the king of the south to the king of the north (v. 6); afterwards the marriage also of the daughter of the king of the north (v. 17), and other special circumstances in the wars between the two, which are to be regarded not merely as individualizing portraitures, but denote concrete facts which have verified themselves in history. It is my opinion that these specifics do indeed establish the view that the prophecy consists of a series of predictions of historical fact. These features of the prophecy do find their actual fulfillment in history and do coincide with historical reality.
*
For those that do not like the chronological jumps, unfortunately, this is a characteristic of the book. Jerome commented on the drastically abbreviated Persian history of Dan. 11:2: “the Spirit of prophecy was not concerned about preserving historical detail but in summarizing only the most important matters.” [1]
My understanding of Chapter 8: Starts with the Medes and Persians (ram) being destroyed by Greece (he-goat) and ends with the destruction of the small horn or fierce king during the end time (cf. Dan. 8:17, 19). Some big chronological jumps involved there.
My understanding of Chapter 10, 11: Starts with Alexander and ends with the destruction of the king of the north during the end time (cf. Dan. 11:40, 45). The conclusion of the book deals with the resurrection (cf. Dan. 12:2, 13). Again some huge chronological jumps.
And Bobcat, the text of Dan. 11 does produce a term which would indicate a transition. My source applies the primary fulfillment to “Hellenistic Diadochian kings,” but a secondary fulfillment is a distinct possibility, if one follows Jesus’ reasoning in Matt. 24 and Mark 13.
For the time appointed. lammou`ad: Daniel (11:27, 29, 35) uses the phrase “for/at the time appointed.” In all three cases it heralds a regime change. The noun mou`ad is related to the verb → y`d, with which it is also explicitly associated in Ex. 30:36; 2 Sam. 20:5. The verb y`d refers either to the making of an appointment between two equal partners, or to such action taken by one person over against another of lower standing; as a rule both cases refer to a meeting at a specified time, and occasionally at a specific place. ya`a? can also mean appoint, designate, appear or come, gather, agree or to have an appointment, appear or reveal oneself. See HOLL. All the West Semitic languages attest a noun m`d. Arab. maw`id means “place/time of an appointment,” Aram. mo`a?a’ means “appointed time, festival” (TDOT, vol. VIII, p. 168).
Transmission of power : Related term sama? ya? is used about 20 times in the OT; often it clearly conveys the idea of transmitting something from a person to another person or a sacrificial animal. In each of these cases where more precise information is given it would appear that there is some transmission involved in the act of placing hands on animal or person; the same may be said of the commissioning of Levites or Joshua. It is therefore appropriate to see here a transmission of power. The same terminology is used later for rabbinic ordination, and is explained as the pouring of the personality “as from one vessel into another.” See TDOT, vol. V, pp. 423, 424.
Thus, in Daniel 11 the phrase lammou`ad “for/at the time appointed” [“for/at the appointed time”] would indicate the kiing of the north having undergone a transition. The end would be postponed until this king of the north has taken his stand (cf. Dan. 8:19; Dan. 11:27, 35). See also TDOT, vol. VIII, p. 172.
If “leader of the covenant” (Dan. 11:22; cf. Dan. 9:26, 27) does not refer to Jesus, the Messiah, it would be an unreliable, and utterly worthless history lesson.
[TDOT = Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament]
[HOLL = Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament]
[1] St. Jerome, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, translated into English by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., p. 92.
-
60
what ever happened to the king of the north and king of south?
by nowwhat? inafter the daniel book came out, nothing has ben said about it in at least 10 years.
did that prohecy get thrown out the window when the soviet union fell?.
-
-
Vidqun
Jeffro, yes, I do go for Occam's Razor in this case, the simplest explanation is often the truthful one. Nevertheless, I do find Dan. 2 & 7 interesting if not remarkable, even if written by a 2nd century Jew.
-
60
what ever happened to the king of the north and king of south?
by nowwhat? inafter the daniel book came out, nothing has ben said about it in at least 10 years.
did that prohecy get thrown out the window when the soviet union fell?.
-
-
Vidqun
Depends on how you view Daniel and the rest of the Bible. Three options to choose from:
1) If you view the book of Daniel as an imperfect history book, produced by a misguided Jew, then it's a joke. You can safely ignore it.
2) If you are interested in apocalypticism and view the writer(s) of the book of Daniel to have been sincere, perhaps producing the book as a teaching aid, then you should study the book to get behind the psychology of the writer(s) and compare the writing in it with similar apocalyptic writings.
3) If you view Daniel or parts of it as being divinely inspired, even though having indergone a drastic editing process and multiple revisions, then it would be worth your while studying the book.
I personally believe the book, or parts of it, to have been written by a Jewish exile, called Daniel. The majority of it contains prophecy and is definitely worth my while to study.
-
50
Hi! I'm New Here
by alecholmesthedetective inhi there, as was suggested to me, i'm starting this thread to say hi to everyone.. my awakening began recently, after the new light on the 'slave'.
i felt it didn't add up and went to check and found out ttatt.
for a while i tried to find evidence of whether the wt might still be god's organization, i needn't say i couldn't.. i had already resigned as a ministerial servant and a pioneer, had already had several issues with the elders and did not put up with their nonsense for a long.
-
-
Vidqun
Welcome! Involvement with the UN and OSCE, pedophile scandals, overlapping generations, GB = faithful and discreet slave, lack of love. If that doesn't shock you awake, nothing will.
-
17
Why is France fighting in the middle of Africa?
by slimboyfat inseriously i have no idea what is going on or why.
because of my situation at home i have not been watching the news for the past two months or so.
but i keep catching glimpses about some sort of french war in africa.
-
-
Vidqun
According to RT, France gets most of its uranium from Mali. Some say it is to protect those uranium reserves. One of the reasons....