Posts by Vidqun

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

Vidqun

Bobcat, I think you're on the right track. I will not rule out that it could be resurrected humans, the information is somewhat scanty. But here's what TDNT has to say, along the lines of what you are suggesting. They seem to be God's council of elders. The fact that they do not participate in the judicial process in the book of Revelation doesn't mean much. It could be that we do not have all the information:

4. The 24 πρεσβ?τεροι in Revelation. Special problems are raised by the passages in Rev. in which, in the visions of the divine, 24 elders surround the throne of God in heaven along with the four beasts, 4:4, 10; 5:6, 8, 11, 14; 7:11; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4. 99 The thrones on which they sit (4:4; 11:16), the white robes and the crowns which adorn them (4:4), show that they are heavenly beings, and the title πρεσβ?τεροι suggests that they are God’s council of elders. Yet there is no mention of God sitting in council with them nor do they seem to discharge a judicial office, cf. 20:4. Their function is not the exercising of their own dominion; it is simply adoration of the majesty of Him who sits on the throne (4:10; 19:4) and of the exalted Lamb (5:8–10) → θρ?νος , III, 165, 21 ff. They sink to the ground, offer worship, and cast down their crowns before the throne of the eternal and omnipotent God (4:10) with songs of praise (4:11; 5:9 f.; 11:17 f.; 19:4 etc.). According to 5:8 they offer priestly ministry for the earthly community with harps and golden vials. Their divine service in heaven accompanies the events of redemption and judgment on earth, which the elders inaugurate and conclude with gesture and song.

There is no suggestion that these elders are redeemed and transfigured men. 100 They are plainly differentiated from the transfigured, 7 and 14. They are also distinguished from the angelic hosts (5:11; 7:11) which surround the throne, the four beasts and the 24 elders. But they are so only as a higher class of angels which is closer to the throne of God than the others and which is entrusted in a peculiar way with His secrets. “One of the elders” functions as angelus interpres (5:5; 7:13) and the seer addresses him by the title of majesty, κ?ριος , 7:14. See TDNT, vol. VI, p. 668.

99 Cf. Michl, who carefully surveys the history of interpretation.

100 The thesis of Michl, 91–114 that the elders are the righteous of the old covenant viewed as the heavenly presbyters of the Chr. people seems to me to be quite untenable.

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

Vidqun

Haven't researched it yet, but can the 24 elders not be the leaders of the 144000. If I remember correctly, each division of Israel had a leader called an elder which had to report to Moses. So each elder would lead a division of 6000 (24 x 6000 = 144000). Interestingly, the tribes in Revelation are divided into 12000 each. So there would be two elders per tribe (Rev. 7). But then they would have to be separate from the 144000 as Bobcat indicates. They have crowns and sit on throwns. Certainly Jesus' apostle would be amongst them. Just a thought.

26

What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

who the el' is el' ?.

the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.

(bellah, 2011, p. 287).

Vidqun

Sorry mP, bad habit of mine. That was for Snare.

26

What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

who the el' is el' ?.

the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.

(bellah, 2011, p. 287).

Vidqun

Forgive me for going off topic for a moment. Remember our last discussion on cancer? I see Immunotherapy has emerged as a promising way to tackle cancer. In a recent paper, a scientist argued that "despite the current dogma that cancer is a genetic disease, it can also be viewed as an "immunologic disorder." In many ways the adaptive immune system is an ideal anti-cancer therapy if it can be trained to attack tumor cells that it would otherwise tolerate." Perhaps we should open the old thread again. In my mind this would be a much more effective and less intrusive way to fight cancer.

26

What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

who the el' is el' ?.

the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.

(bellah, 2011, p. 287).

Vidqun

Not sure what you're looking for, but here's how I see it. End Product (Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures: Genesis - Malachi). This I view as important evidence. After reading through the individual books, you might wonder: Where did these come from? What can we learn of the authors? Under what conditions were they written? What were their purpose then? What are their purpose now?

Is this not how the secrets of DNA and RNA were unravelled (Watson & Crick)? They had the finished product, now they had to work out how life functions are controlled by and from the nucleus. So what would be necessary in this case would be to reverse engineer the language of the Biblical texts to see how and why they were written and why they were collected? Here one can make use of different tools: Textual criticism, linguistics, internal considerations (grammar, word studies), external considerations (archaeology, history, related texts), related languages, inscriptions, etc.

Definition: Textual Criticism deals with the nature and origin of all the witnesses of a composition or text, in this case the biblical books. In the course of such an inquiry, attempts are made to describe how the texts were written, changed, and transmitted from one generation to the next.

Fact: Monotheism cropped up in a predominantly polytheistic environment. Why? How? When? We have many pieces of the puzzle. Using above mentioned tools, we can start putting the pieces together. The picture that is starting to form is still imperfect, many gaps still, but it is much clearer now than it was a hundred years ago. So you don't have to look too far for the evidence. It's right there in front of you.

20

Brilliant Article On Aging

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2013/04/19/autophagy-the-housekeeper-in-every-cell-that-fights-aging-2/.

the above relates to one my interests, fighting the aging process (i've seen it and decided not to participate).

the really cool thing is that it ties together nearly every successful anti-aging intervention into one biological process.

Vidqun

*lost*, what I last heard is that sperm also deteriorates as the person gets older. Some of the DNA sequences are lost, defective or doubled up. So I guess having children, the younger you are the better. Young people also have the energy to raise children, so that's nature's way of making sure the best genetic material gets through to the new generation.

20

Brilliant Article On Aging

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2013/04/19/autophagy-the-housekeeper-in-every-cell-that-fights-aging-2/.

the above relates to one my interests, fighting the aging process (i've seen it and decided not to participate).

the really cool thing is that it ties together nearly every successful anti-aging intervention into one biological process.

Vidqun

Thanks Metatron, impressive article indeed. I rememer there is one cell line, HeLa cells, that circumvent the Hayflick limit, used for cancer research. These cells originated from a patient with cervical cancer, and they keep on propagating themselves. By now there should be a few ton of these cells in research laboratories. I wonder how they fit into the scheme of things?

33

Heartwarming JW Facebook Comment

by exwhyzee in

jw
friends

this urban legend/anecdote was on the facebook page of a jw who is a facebook friend of mine.

it's kind of long but tell us what you think....it was all i could do to stop myself from making a snarky comment.

a young couple very much wanted to have a family, but his wife could not conceive, so they decided to adopt a baby.

Vidqun

The one that I heard, also about 15-20 years ago was about a Scottish JW couple that were in line to adopt refugee children. All the children were placed and they were so very sad. Lo and behold! There was one left, a little girl, somewhat older than the others. One problem, this little girl was so traumatized somewhere along the line, that she never spoke. The couple decided to adopt the little girl, and can you believe it, a miracle! When she entered her room, her eyes immediately fell on the Bible-story book. Yes, you've got it, she started speaking and could tell them her story... don't remember the rest or the moral of the story. It was so happefying, there was a tear in my eye....

22

CANADA | Toronto Star | May 3, 2013 - Jehovah's Witnesses: Kindness is an act of grace - not an obligation

by jwleaks in

jw
friends

who should be responsible for financially supporting jehovah's witnesses, who put misguided faith in the failed 1975 "end-of-the-world" predictions, and went full-time preaching without any consideration for retirement many years later?.

kindness is an act of grace not an obligationare successful brothers ethically required to help aging moneyless sister?

toronto star.

Vidqun

My brother (not a Witness) f#*&s up regularly because of bad decisions, then I bale him out, because he is my brother. Blood is thicker than water. In above case, if her worldly family starts taking care of her, the light might just go on for her. Why is it that the congregation or my JW family do not help or look after me? Is there something wrong with this religion? Where is the love and compassion they speak of? This is reverse psychology, in other words "giving a good witness."

51

Jeremiah Source Material

by Bobcat in

i started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .

page 52:.

here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .

Vidqun

"In principle" (principle = general truth - Webster) but not according to the letter. The writer asserts they are already doing this in a general, round-about way. Now it appears to be a basic doctrine, but later it will be strictly enforced (in the New System?).

The context deals with friendships. Personally, I view the above as another JW fallacy. When I was married and "in the truth" I had many friends. After my divorce the friendships would dry up. As a single person I did not fit in with the couples anymore, and was sidelined. As many here have remarked, JWs practice conditional love. If you are single and pioneering, you are acceptable. If not, you are viewed as weak = bad association. My five cents for what it's worth.