Stirling work Jeffro! Very illuminating to see that their agenda is the only one that matters. Lets look for scriptures to fit our point of reference...
Posts by Vidqun
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27God's Word for Us Through Jeremiah - Review
by Jeffro ina recent thread about this week's study of the watch tower society's god's word for us through jeremiah led me to decide to review how much of the bible book of jeremiah is actually considered in that publication.. unlike other watch tower society verse-by-verse considerations of some bible books, their jeremiah book instead purports to impart lessons 'for us'.
key scriptures in jeremiah contradict jw doctrine, so a verse-by-verse approach was out of the question, probably having learned from their daniel and isaiah efforts that expose problems with jw interpretations.. one good feature of the watchtower library on cd-rom is you can search for a scripture, then find all the search occurences for where that scripture has been cited in jw publications, which made the process much easier.. in god's word for us through jeremiah, much of the bible book of jeremiah is ignored altogether.
in fact, less than half of the bible book is mentioned at all, and only 16% of jeremiah is actually quoted (including portions with the instruction to "read" the cited verses.
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So where else can we go?
by Julia Orwell inno, i'm not misquoting peter talking to jesus again, or relating a conversation i had with a jw.. i'm asking something a little different.. i began my fade in jan this year and completed it at the memorial on 26th march.
since learning ttatt and becoming mentally free, my depression has improved, i see colours better, and my anxiety issues have dissolved.
i returned to teaching high school after years away from it, and am a substitute teacher at some local schools.
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Vidqun
Julia, here is something that helped me tremendously inside and outside the Borg. As a child I collected things. As an adult I had a few hobbies, diving, videography, photography, and of course my books. So not knowing your situation fully, I might be somewhat off kilter, so forgive me.
This is my suggestion: Ask yourself, what have you always wanted to do (in the form of a hobby). Play a music instrument? Learn a language? Do a cooking course? It must be something that you love doing, like a form of art, drawing, painting, sculpting, but also something that won't break the bank. It must be something completely different from what you are currently doing. When you find something, do it. It must also be something that helps you to "forget" about your troubles. Say you work on a sculpture. The time you spend carving must take up all your concentration. My five cents worth...
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Why do they use 'human' apostates?
by carla inwith all the threads about the dc, i am wondering why on earth does the wt use the wording 'human' apostates?
will next year have a 'spiritual' apostate talk?
i don't get it and no, i have not and will not go to their site and watch the mind numbing video or whatever......
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Vidqun
Yes, you're right. These apostates and opposers would be less inclined to contribute to their coffers, and they will discourage others to contribute (to the PPP = Pedophile Protection Program).
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
Yes I can just see the headlines. Very important inscription unearthed. Kilroy was here! in Old Aramaic.
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Why do they use 'human' apostates?
by carla inwith all the threads about the dc, i am wondering why on earth does the wt use the wording 'human' apostates?
will next year have a 'spiritual' apostate talk?
i don't get it and no, i have not and will not go to their site and watch the mind numbing video or whatever......
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Vidqun
Again we have a serious abuse and misapplication of scripture. Here he is speaking of the Antichrist, not apostates. The same goes for 2 John (7, 11) This one you should not greet (as a fellow Christian, NET footnote: Do not give him any greeting does not mean to insult the person. It means "do not greet the person as a fellow Christian" (which is impossible anyway since the opponents are not genuine believers in the author's opinion):
1 8 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort.
(1Jo 2:18-19 NWT)
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
Yes, I have invested in Bibleworks and Logos. They come in very handy. Yes, I agree. Doesn't help being dogmatic on a shaky foundation. They are still unearthing valuable stuff. You never know, one of these days we might have the answer.
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
Bobcat, some scholars view Darius the Mede as the uncle of Cyrus. As uncle and viceroy and/or vassal of Cyrus the Great, he would have been sidelined in the honor stakes by historians. Nevertheless, as you say, the question of his identity must remain open for the time being. Interestingly, Keil & Delitzsch in their Commentary had the following to say on Dan. 9:1:
Darius given kingship. In the word hâmelake the Hophal is to be noticed: rex constitutus, factus est. It shows that Darius did not become king over the Chaldean kingdom by virtue of a hereditary right to it, nor that he gained the kingdom by means of conquest, but that he received it, (qabeil, Dan. 6:1) from the conqueror of Babylon, Cyrus, the general of the army.
Goldingay mentions that it could refer to a title or throne name: “ Although Zech 1 links Jeremiah’s seventy-years prophecy with the events of 519, which are close to seventy years after the fall of Jerusalem in 587 b.c. , the Darius by whose reign chap. 9 is dated must be not Darius I (Porphyry) but the Darius of Median birth introduced in 6:1 [5:31]. His “being made king” of Babylon here may reflect his “acquiring/receiving” the kingship of Babylon there (and see Setting above). Ahashweros is the regular Biblical Hebrew equivalent of Old Persian Khshayarsha, Greek Ξ ερξης (Xerxes: so Old Greek here; Theodotion transliterates—cf. Revised Version); see Esther; Ezra 4:6. Historically, Darius I was the father of Xerxes I; the order of events in Ezra 4 might have suggested that Xerxes (v 6) preceded Darius (v 24). Khshayarsha, like Darayavaush itself, is probably a throne name, meaning “hero among rulers” (Frye, Heritage, 97), and Wiseman infers that it could thus have been borne by an earlier figure such as Darius the Mede’s father, though it seems a problem with this suggestion that Khshayarsha is a Persian name. In Esther, a Greek translation takes ahhswrws to refer to Artaxerxes, while in Tob 14:15, Ασυηρος (Asueros) denotes Uvakhshtra or Cyaxares the Median conqueror of Nineveh in 612 B.C. (Frye, Heritage, 72–73). He might be seen as Darius the Mede’s predecessor/ancestor/father, and ahhswrws is actually as close a transliteration of Uvakhshtra (Akkadian U-aksa-tar) as it is of Khshayarsha (see W. S. Auchincloss, “Darius the Median,” Biblioteca Sacra 66 [1909] 536–38; Torrey, Journal of the American Oriental Society 66 [1946] 7–8).” [1]
[1] Goldingay, J. E. (1998). Vol. 30: Daniel. Word Biblical Commentary (239). Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 239.
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
I should amend my statement to: “you cannot use words or a language to [accurately] date a document.” Here’s a few problems one needs to look out for in connection with language use in a MS. Few would argue against the fact that many editors were involved with the production of the finished product of the book of Daniel. The Jewish Talmud implies that "men of the Great Synagogue" edited parts of Daniel (also cf. MT with Greek versions). If you do not have an earlier MSS to compare it with, you’ve got a problem with those editorial changes and insertions.
E.g., the complete Isaiah scroll (1QIsa a) from Qumran, is viewed by scholars as a vulgar modernization of the Proto-Masoretic Text. The scribe of 1QIsa a was not interested in a faithful reproduction of the Proto-Masoretic Text. He tried to adapt the material in such a way that the common person would understand. Unfortunately the average person could barely read the Proto-Masoretic Text, let alone interpret it.
In this regard Encyclopaedia Judaica says: “As has been noted above, the average reader was scarcely able to understand the MT properly, and often unable to read it correctly. Therefore, copyists often substituted contemporaneous forms for the original ones even in the case of proper nouns. For example, the form ys`yh, `thyh, representing the type that became common mainly after 586 B.C.E. (the destruction of the First Temple), is used instead of the original ys`yhw, `thyhw which represents the dominant type during the previous period. w'th khl 'lh ydhy `sthh wyhyw khl 'lh(“All these (things) my hand has made”) of Is. 66:2 became w'th khl 'lh ydhy `sthh whyw khl 'lh(“and so all these things came to be (mine)”), etc.
More examples can be found in the efforts of the LXX-translators to make the Old Testament intelligible to their compatriots. This led them to use terms native to their Egyptian and Alexandrian environment, words that had no equivalents in Hebrew. E.g.,, ngshym (“slave drivers”) of Ex. 5:6, 10, 13 became ergodiouktai (“overseers, foremen”), a term familiar to us from the papyri of Hellenistic Egypt.
For the particularly difficult list of fashion novelties in Is. 31:18 - 24, which were strange to the translator, he simply supplied a list of comparable items from his own age and environment. “We cannot call his work here ‘translation’; most of the expressions are substitutes rather than equivalents. Thus the Greek translation often refers to completely different objects, and is useless for determining the meaning of the Hebrew word.”
“Finally we should note the attempt to make ancient words relevant to contemporary circumstances in Egyptian life. In Deut. 23:18 we read: “There shall be no cult prostitute (qdhsh, Greek pornei) of the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a cult prostitute (qdhs, Greek porneuoun) of the sons of Israel”. The choice of terms pornei and porneuoun for qdhs instead of hierodoulos already alters the meaning of the passage. Nevertheless, even more significant is the addition: ouk estai telesphoros apo thugateroun Israeil, kai ouk estai teliskomenos apo uioun Israel. The term’s telesphoros and teliskomenos refer to the participation in the Mysteries. As cultic prostitution was a temptation in Hellenistic Egypt. The Egyptian translators felt as justified as the Targumists in linking the text to their time.” [i]
[i] E. Würthwein, The Text Of The Old Testament An Introduction to the Biblia Hebraica, pp. 67, 77.
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
View "Official Aramaic" as a diplomatic language, similar to English and French today. The Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian Empire incorporated different nations and a standard communication medium was needed. Because of the wide spread of the empires, different vassals would also have been appointed to rule the different city states, e.g., Darius the Mede. As was brought out by Bobcat, he could have been any of a number of historical personages, even Cyrus himself. If appointed by Cyrus, he would have ruled under him, and secondary rulers received secondary honors.
Bottom line is, you cannot use words or a language to date a document. Many scholars have tried (and failed). As seen, Official Aramaic existed from 700 - 200 BCE, so the Aramaic or loanwords of Daniel are not good indications of provenance or time of writing. I like Doug's suggestion of chiasms. That would explain a lot of conradictions in the Bible. Also, as was mentioned, many editors were involved in the construction of Daniel, the end product might have been compiled much later.
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Dualism in new WT theology?
by Thoughtless ini am not the most "deep" wt student, and i am trying to beef up on wt theology so i can reassess my belief system and prove to myself that what i am planning to do is the right thing.
but what i lack in wt theology knowledge, i make up in some philosophical knowledge.
wt theology teaches a purely physicalist standpoint, in which our soul is limited to our bodies, no spirit.
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Vidqun
I agree with you. That makes me an apostate too! Even when Jesus died he "delivered up [his] spirit" (NW). Funny how JWs squirm when you mention these scriptures.